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'''Prabhupāda:'''So, Baha’i faith, what is the objective of the Baha’i faith?

'''John:''' The objective? We are all the universal commonwealth of nations. We are all flowers in one garden.

'''Prabhupāda:'''[to Ranchor:] You come here. What does he say?

'''Ranchor:''' Well he’s been explaining to me that Baha’i, or Baha’u’llah who is the founder of the Baha’i faith, he synthesized all the teachings of the persons he called the nine great teachers, of whom Kṛṣṇa is included within those nine, and he synthesised these teachings to present to the world the recognised way of living peacefully on the world for God realisation for the next 25,000 years. Each 25,000 years presuming a new teaching is given for that period of time. And... 

'''Prabhupāda:'''What is the ultimate goal?

'''John:''' The ultimate goal? God realisation of the infinite oneness of man.

'''Ranchor:''' He has explained to me that he has experienced what he considers to be Brahman, but that he knows… He has experienced what he considers to be Brahman. But, he knows that there’s something beyond that.

'''Prabhupāda:'''You have realised it like that? That Brahma, that Brahma?

'''Ranchor:''' Brahman yes.

Prabhupäda:You have used this? Brahma is a Sanskrit word.

'''John:''' I didn’t use this word, no. Because a word… An experience to me is an experience, a word is… Like an apple out there, until you experience the apple, you never know the flavour, until you experience, an experience it remains a word.

'''Prabhupāda:'''So that means you have experienced what is God?

'''John:''' I wouldn’t like to say that what I experienced was God.

'''Ranchor:''' He says he experienced the light, the divine light, but that he knows that is not the complete experience. He knows he must search further. But he considers, or Baha’u’llah taught, that God himself is unknowable.

'''Prabhupāda:'''Unknowable?

'''Ranchor:''' Unknowable?

'''Prabhupāda:'''Then why should we try to realize it?

'''John:''' Try to realize it.

'''Prabhupāda:'''No, if it is unknowable, then what is the use of attempting to know Him? 

'''Ranchor:''' He has not answered that question.

'''Prabhupāda:'''That should be clear. If God is unknowable, then why should we attempt to know Him? 

'''John:''' Well, at this present moment, at this juncture in my [indistinct] life, I felt, God, personally, is unknowable.

'''Prabhupāda:'''[to Ranchor:] He realised God?

'''Ranchor:''' No, he doesn’t claim to have realised God.

'''Prabhupāda:'''But one side you say that God cannot be realised.

'''John:''' I didn’t say this.

'''Prabhupāda:'''He said unknowable?

'''Ranchor:''' He explained that Baha’u’llah has taught that God is unknowable.

'''Prabhupāda:'''If He is unknowable, then why there is a attempt to know Him?

Srutakirti: He said that the ultimate goal of the faith is God realisation, but now you are saying He is unknowable.

'''John:''' Our oneness with God.

'''Prabhupāda:'''Oneness?

'''John:''' Oneness with God.

'''Prabhupāda:'''Now we are different?

'''John:''' I can’t define God. 

'''Prabhupāda:'''You don’t define?

'''John:''' I can’t define God. Because God is... 

'''Prabhupāda:'''What is this?

'''John:''' God is a word, you see, this is the point, from my understanding. And my understanding.

'''Prabhupāda:'''Your understanding may be defective.

'''John:''' Right.

'''Prabhupāda:'''But the thing is, if God is not knowable, then why there should be attempt to know Him?

'''John:''' To become one with reality? We are all going towards, we are all serving, trying to serve.

'''Prabhupāda:'''Is there any statement by the original founder what is the nature of God?

'''John:''' Energy? Light?

'''Ranchor:''' Is there any statement by the original founder of the faith what is the nature of God? Is there any statement that he has made? In other words Baha’u’llah, who is God?

'''John:''' What is God? Well Baha’u’llah, who was the founder of the Baha’i faith was the Pen of God, and what he has written is purely the reflection, because Baha’u’llah, what it means, is that he was the glory of God, not God, but the glory of God, the reflection of God.

'''Prabhupāda:'''That’s nice, that’s nice. But he is reflection of God—reflection means that here is a thing, and in the mirror the exact reflection is there. Just like if you see your face, the reflection in the mirror…

'''John:''' Mmm.

'''Prabhupāda:'''So, the reflection in the mirror is exactly like your face. The face is the reality, and the reflection is a shadow. But it gives the idea of the reality. Is it not?

'''John:''' Uhum.

'''Prabhupāda:'''Similarly, if you say that Baha’u’llah is reflection of God, then from the reflection we can understand what is God. 
'''John:''' As we become more receptive, as we understand more?

'''Prabhupāda:'''Yes, more or less, more or less. When the reflection is there, we can understand the reality. Just like my face: I do not see it. But when I keep a mirror before me, the reflection of the face is there, then I can see, oh here is a spot, or here is this, here is this. So, although I cannot see my face, but when it is reflected, I can see it. And from the reflection I can describe the features of my face. Is it clear?

'''John:''' Uhum.

'''Prabhupāda:'''So, if Baha’i is reflection, then from him we can understand God. 

'''John:''' Yes, I can accept this point, because this makes a sort of way to know God. 

'''Prabhupāda:'''So, what statement he has given about God? That is my point. 

'''John:''' What statement? 

'''Prabhupāda:'''Because if he is reflection—you have said reflection—reflection will give you an idea of the face.

'''John:''' Uhum.

'''Prabhupāda:'''So, what is the difficulty to give any definition or statement about God? 

'''John:''' Well then, does this mean then that we are all, and everything is, reflections if God?

'''Prabhupāda:'''Yes. 

'''John:''' In that broader, infinite sense? 

'''Prabhupāda:'''Yes. Yes, that’s nice. Reflection. In the Christian faith also, they say that man is made after God. We also say. Just like our Kṛṣṇa, God. So, as Kṛṣṇa has got two hands, we have got two hands, Kṛṣṇa has got two legs, we have got two legs, Kṛṣṇa has got a head, we have got a head. So, we can understand from the reflection, we are reflection, we can understand God is a person. Is it not? God is a person. Like me. Is it not clear?

'''John:''' Yes, well this is true, what He said. It is from the clay that made you.

'''Prabhupāda:'''Yes. If I am reflection of God, you are reflection of God, then you, me, everyone of us, is person, therefore God is person. God is not imperson. This is the first statement. 

'''John:''' Yes, well this is one point which I’ve been trying to clarify. 

'''Prabhupāda:'''Yes, it is already clarified, because if I am reflection of God, I am a person, then God must be a person. It is already clear.

'''John:''' Uhum.

'''Prabhupāda:'''Is it not? God is person. As we accept. bhakte person. Now, it is to be understood what kind of person He is? What is the difference between His personality and my personality? That is to be understood. If I am reflection, then I am a person. So, God must be a person, if I am reflection of God. Now just to be understood, what kind of person He is? Is it exactly like me? Or He is different from me?

'''John:''' Different.

'''Prabhupāda:'''Yes.

'''John:''' In what way, a degree or refinement? 

'''Prabhupāda:'''Yes. Thank you. Yes. He is unlimited, we are limited. That is the difference. He is person, I am also person, that’s a fact. But He is the supreme person. Nobody can excel Him. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gétä. Matah parataram nanyat. He’s person. Just like, I am a person, my disciples they are also persons, but my disciple consider me as greater person. Similarly, I consider my spiritual master as greater person. So, greater, greater, greater, greater, greater. When you have come to the person when there is no more greater than him, then he is God. Then he is God. Here I am greater than him, but my spiritual master is greater than me, his spiritual master is greater than him, go on, go on, go on. When you come to the ultimate person, and when he see that there is no more other greater than him, then he is God. 

'''John:''' I can realize this to a point. Because I—I might be completely wrong, I probably am...

'''Prabhupāda:'''This is philosophy. The supreme person, above whom there is no more greater person

'''John:''' Is there no degree of refinement?

'''Prabhupāda:'''Yes, that I said. Just like I am a little more advanced, therefore they accept me as their spiritual master, similarly I accept guru. Guru, guru, means heavy. Heavy, heavy—you do understand? 

'''John:''' Yes, heavy, weight.

'''Prabhupāda:'''Yes, weight. So, guru means heavy. So, I am heavier than my disciple, my guru maharaja is heavier. In this way, when you go to the supreme person, no more heavier than him. He is the heaviest of all. He is God. That is our philosophy. Éçvaraù parama Krsna. We get information from Vedas that parama, the supreme, isvara, controller, is Kṛṣṇa. His name is Kṛṣṇa. Éçvaraù parama Kṛṣṇa. Isvara means controller. So, I am controlling my disciples, my guru maharaja is controlling me, his guru maharaja is controlling. In this way, we are controller and controlled. Both. 
John. Uhum.

'''Prabhupāda:'''I am controlling somebody, but I am controlled by somebody else. This is my position. 

John. Uhum, yes.

'''Prabhupāda:'''In this way, when you find a person who is simply controller, not controlled by anyone else, he is God. He is God. Very simple definition. He is simply controller, he is not controlled. Nobody controls him. Then he is God. This is simple understanding of God.
John. Uhum.

'''Prabhupāda:'''Therefore, it is said, Éçvaraù parama Kṛṣṇa. Para means supreme. He has no controller. He is not controlled. By anyone. Therefore, He is God. Éçvaraù parama Kṛṣṇa. So, He’s a person sat-cit-ananda vigraha. Vigraha means person. So, that is clear, because we are reflection of God. So, I am a person, God must be a person. That is clear. But His personality and my personality, different. At least at the present moment, so long I am in the material world, my personality is there, but my body is not exactly like Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa’s body is sat-cit-ananda. Sat means eternal, cit means full of knowledge, and ananda means full of bliss. My body is not sat-cit-ananda. It is not eternal. It is temporary. Therefore, different from God’s body. My body is not full of knowledge, because I do not know even, what is going on within my body. But it is going on, but I do not know. Therefore, my body is full of ignorance. So, it is temporary, it is full of ignorance, and it is not full of bliss. It is full of miserable conditions. I have got disease, I get old age, I get death, I take my birth, I have got mental anxieties, I have got bodily pains and pleasure, I am afflicted by others. So many. So, there is no ananda, there is no bliss. Therefore, my body is different from God’s, Kṛṣṇa’s, body. He is sat-cit-ananda vigraha. Although He is person, I am person, that’s alright, but at the present moment my body is different from Him. 


Then what is my position? My position is, if I am real reflection, then how I am covered by something by which I have got a body which is not permanent, not blissful, not full of knowledge? So, that covering is called maya. Just like you are covered by your coat. This coat is not your identity. You are mister such-and-such. I ask you mister such-and-such, I don’t ask you mister black coat or blue coat, no. This body is just like that. It is like a dress. Within this body, my reality is there. That is soul. The soul is as good in quality as the Lord, because I am part and parcel of God. Therefore, my attempt should be how to get out of this temporary body, miserable condition without any bliss, and get back my original body, which is as good in quality as that of God. This should be the attempt of human life. Developed consciousness. 
In the animal life they cannot do it, because they have no developed consciousness. In the human life we have got developed consciousness, therefore out attempt should be made how to get back, or revive, our original consciousness, or original body. That is perfection of life. That original consciousness is Kṛṣṇa consciousness: that I am part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, or God. I am fallen in this my condition of life, so let me revive my original position and go back to home back to Godhead. 

'''John:''' Could you explain what that experience that I experienced, that I was pointing out earlier on, back in 1940? Due to an accident they gave me anaesthetic and the experience was the sounds of the great bell ringing. Which eventually…

'''Prabhupāda:'''You experienced?

'''John:''' Yeah. 

'''Ranchor:''' He described experiencing dazzling light.

'''John:''' Yes, from a pinpoint this light grew and grew and grew until it eventually burst into a thousand million lights. And then the sounds of the bells, it went…

'''Prabhupāda:'''[Aside:] Let him come if he wants. What is that?

'''Ranchor:''' Sound of bells ringing. Bells…

'''John:''' Yes, these large [indistinct] bells, vibrations, they gradually tinkled outwards, until there was just a tinkle, and there was a breath of wind blowing…

'''Prabhupāda:'''That’s nice. You experienced this?

'''John:''' Yes.

'''Ranchor:''' Yes.

'''Prabhupāda:'''There was a place where bells are ringing?

'''Ranchor:''' He experienced merging into. 

'''John:''' Big bells were ringing first with a deep dong, then there was a gradual tinkling off to a mere tinkle, then it just went into a breeze, like a sshhh, like a breeze blowing, like the sand on a seashore…

'''Prabhupāda:'''So, there is breeze, there is sea, there is bell, so there are varieties. So, you have to accept that the spiritual world is full of varieties. 

'''John:''' Uhum.

'''Prabhupāda:'''It is not impersonal. That’s nice. As you say that there was breeze, there was sand-beach, there were bells—these are varieties. So, we also say that the spiritual world is full of spiritual varieties. 

'''John:''' Uhum.

'''Prabhupāda:'''
cintämaëi-prakara-sadmasu kalpa-våkña-
lakñävåteñu surabhér abhipälayantam
lakñmé-sahasra-çata-sambhrama-sevyamänaà
govindam ädi-puruñaà tam ahaà bhajämi
[Bs 5.29]
God, Govindam, the supreme Lord, is very fond of tending cows, surabhi cows, as cowherd’s boy surabhir abhipalayantam. And he is always surrounded by many thousands of goddesses of fortune. They are called gopis. And the house in that spiritual world is made of touchstone Cintamini prakara. Kalpa vriksa, there are trees, but they are desire trees—not like this tree—you can ask anything from that tree, it will supply. 
So, these are the description of the spiritual world. The spiritual world, or the abode of God, the kingdom of God, is not void or impersonal. There are varieties, as exactly we experience varieties in this world, but that variety is of spirit, not of matter. Spirit means having knowledge, that is spirit. Just like here, this table, this is material, it has no knowledge. Suppose I want to move this table little this way or that way, so I don’t require to move it. As soon as I wish, I ask the table, ‘Please move this way,’ it will move. Just like I ask my disciple, ‘Please move,’ he will move. This is spirit. So, the spiritual world means there are varieties exactly like this, but they are all full of knowledge. Knowledge.

'''John:''' Which is infinitely expanding?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, expanding. Knowledge means, whatever he desires he does. That is knowledge.

'''John:''' This would relate then to the eternal progress which is open to every soul.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Progress? There is no question of progress.

'''John:''' Or evolution?

'''Prabhupāda:''' There is varieties.

'''John:''' Varieties.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Varieties. Just like this flower is a variety. The table is a variety. So, progress from here, from matter we make progress to the spiritual world. That is progress. But here all the varieties, because they are material, they are temporary. There the varieties are not temporary—eternal. Here this flower, it will wither, dry, because it is made of material energy. But there the flower, ever fresh. Ever fresh. It will never wither. The tree is ever fresh. The trees are always full with fruits. Not only one kind of fruit, but whatever fruit you like you can get from that tree. These are the description of the spiritual world.

'''John:''' Uhum.

'''Prabhupāda:''' And there the supreme person is surabhir abhipalayantam. He is acting like a cowherd boy. Venum kvanantam. He is blowing on his flute. Barhavatamsam. He has got a peacock feather on his head. Ananda cinmaya rasa. Here we taste everything because there is some mellow. I take a fruit because there is some taste, but that taste is temporary. Even if I taste a nice fruit, the fruit will be finished, or there are many fruits, my taste will be finished. It will come to an end. Therefore, it is material. Suppose you give me mango. I can eat mango, very nice taste. Then mango is finished. There was one mango. But if there are many mangos, then I cannot eat. After eating one mango, two mango, my capacity to taste, finished. So here there is taste, mellow, that is temporary.

'''John:''' Uhum.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Finished. But there the taste never finishes. Neither the tasting object is finishing. That is spiritual.

'''John:''' Is this what you call spiritual growth?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Spiritual world. There is spiritual world. Just like this is material world. There is similar world beyond the sky, spiritual world. There also in the spiritual world there are also planets, and they are all spiritual planets. So as in this planet or any other planet there are varieties, there are also varieties. The only difference is, they are not temporary. They are eternal. Here in this material world everything is temporary, it will be finished. Your body is temporary, because it will be finished. [aside] come on. It will not stay. But there the body is never finished. Once you enter, you get eternal body. Eternal bliss. Eternal knowledge. Everything eternal.

'''John:''' Then where does the point of reincarnation come in if one has this…

'''Prabhupāda:''' Incarnation means when somebody comes from there, that is incarnation. Just like I come from India. Similarly, the supreme Lord Kṛṣṇa sometimes comes from there.

'''John:''' Uhum.

'''Prabhupāda:''' To teach us. When you forget Kṛṣṇa, He comes. It is said, yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati bharata. He comes personally, He sends his representative, just like Baha’i, he also spoke about God.

'''John:''' Uhum.

'''Prabhupāda:''' So, sometimes He comes personally, sometimes He sends his representative, just to revive our God consciousness. This is called…

'''John:''' Comes from age to age?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. So here we have forgotten God, there God is personally present. So therefore, sometimes He comes, sometimes He sends his representative. So, the representative, according to the time, atmosphere, and people, he speaks about God as far as they can understand. But here also we have got different varieties of people, who can understand more than the other. Therefore, we find the representative sometimes speaks differently because there are different persons. Just like, Jesus Christ said, ‘Thou shalt not kill.’ This means he was speaking to a group of people who were number one killers. Their business was to kill. Not very first-class men. If in a society the member simply kills, that means not very civilized man. In the civilized society the killing is not allowed, but they were killing. Therefore, to stop that killing, sinful activities—that was the main preaching. So, Lord Jesus Christ spoke only that thing, that if these rascals stop killing someday, they will be able to understand what is God. Let them first of all stop these sinful activities.

'''Prabhupāda:''' So, Lord Buddha also said. Ahimsa. He did not say anything more, because they will not be able to understand. Because, such sinful men, what they will understand about God? Those who are busy in killing, then what they will understand God? Therefore, the preaching is, ‘Thou shalt not kill.’ Let them stop that, then there will be opportunity for understanding God.

'''Prabhupāda:''' So as soon is this statement is there that thou shalt not kill, that means he was preaching not amongst very high class men. So, any class of men, they should be given some idea, but as far as they can understand. Therefore, we sometimes find the different types of preaching by different representatives of God.

'''John:''' Uhum.

'''Prabhupāda:''' But, anyone preaching, he says about the glories of God. That is the sign of God’s representative. If he speaks about the glories of the Lord, he does not call himself as God, then he is representative of God. He is the confidential servant of God. Kintu prabhu yah priyah eva tasya. Such spiritual master is very dear. He speaks according to the time, circumstances, people, differently, but he speaks about God. That is the sign of becoming representative of God.

[pause]
'''Ranchor:''' Um he, one, um, one thing which he could not properly understand was what distinguishes Kṛṣṇa consciousness from the teachings of the other representatives of Kṛṣṇa. What distinguishes their teachings from the…

'''Prabhupāda:''' Distinctions I have already explained. Others they preach the same Kṛṣṇa consciousness according to the circumstances.

'''John:''' Uhum, from the time in which…

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, where he is speaking. There are in Kṛṣṇa consciousness many things to be understood. The first understanding is God is great and I am God’s subordinate. God is predominator, I am predominated. This is basic principle of God consciousness. Now, what is my relationship with God? How I can serve Him? What are the varieties of service? There are so many things, unlimited—God is unlimited. So, to know about Him is also unlimited.

The first knowledge is that I am maintained or predominated by God. God is the supreme predominator, controller, maintainer of all of us. This is the preliminary knowledge.

Then, I am part and parcel of God, therefore I am qualitatively one with God. But He is unlimitedly powerful, I am limited. This is second stage.

Then the third stage, when one realises that I am eternal servant of God, he begins service. That is devotional service. That is the beginning of self-realisation, and realisation of God. So as one advances in devotional service, he understands God, he understands himself, he understands the whole thing. Is that clear?

'''John:''' So regardless of name…

'''Prabhupāda:''' God has got thousands and thousands of names.

'''John:''' [gasp] Yes.

'''Prabhupāda:''' But He has got one chief name, and that name is Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise he has got thousands and thousands of names.

'''John:''' Well this is the point, you see.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.

'''John:''' And this is the great stumbling block of humanity.

'''Prabhupāda:''' No.

'''John:''' It is, in a lot of respects.

'''Prabhupāda:''' No. God has got many names…

'''John:''' Unless this realisation, it’s a great split.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Many names. But the chief name is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa means all-attractive.

'''John:''' Yes. But the state I am worried about is that God has thousands of names, God is manifest within the whole of creation…

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, God is manifest in you, God is manifest in him, God is manifest in this flower, God is manifest in this table. Because God is manifest... we know this table, material table, is made of material things, but these material things are energy of God.

'''John:''' Hm.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Therefore, it has got relationship with God. Spiritual being—this is also another energy of God. So, material energy is called external energy, and spiritual energy, as we are living entities, marginal. So, there is material world. God has got connection. God is manifest in material world, but not very distinctly. One who can understand, just like, we cannot see the sun in the sky, but one who has got knowledge, he knows the sun is not yet set. He can understand the sun is there by the sunlight. Similarly, by seeing the energy of Kṛṣṇa, we can understand what is Kṛṣṇa. The more you understand about the energy, the more you understand clearly Kṛṣṇa.

'''John:''' But only thing I see and I experience is a great confusion going on in the world around us in this level, this plane of existence where, seeing this beautiful bouquet, which is unified into a beautiful creation…

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.

'''John:''' …which we all are. Yet there are so many diversions and divergences in the individual consciousness, whether or not harmonising, whether or not really getting together in this great universal knowledge and understanding.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. They can be harmonised, when they come to God consciousness. Now, because one hasn't or has forgotten God, he is seeing simply this matter, material. Just like the scientists: they have no experience of God; they are simply dealing with the matter. They are thinking matter is all in all. They are unaware of the fact that matter is an energy of God. That they do not—that is imperfectness of knowledge.

So, God is realised by perfection of knowledge. Those who are imperfect, they cannot realize God. God is there, even to the imperfect person. Just like this flower. This flower is present both to the perfect person and the imperfect person: so God’s energy is present; the perfect person can understand that it is made of God’s energy, and imperfect person says, they do not see God behind this, they see that it is the nature is working. That is the difference. The eyes of the perfect person is different from the eyes of the imperfect person. Just like, if there is an electric fan, just like in our childhood we used to think that there is a ghost within this fan. But one who knows, he does not find any ghost: he knows that it is running by the electric energy, which is coming from the electric powerhouse. So, the ignorant are also seeing the fan, and the man in knowledge is also seeing the fan, but their seeing is different. The perfect man is seeing in a different way than the imperfect man. So, the whole thing is present before the perfect and the imperfect. One who is imperfect, he is seeing in a different way, and the perfect is seeing in another. That is the difference. But the object of seeing is the same.

What is that verse? ‘Yo mam pasyati sarvatra, sarvam mam pasyati.’ Find out.

[pours glass of water]

'''Pradyumna:'''
:yo mäà paçyati sarvatra
:sarvaà ca mayi paçyati
:tasyähaà na praëaçyämi
:sa ca me na praëaçyati
:[Bg. 6.30]
:"For one who sees Me everywhere and sees everything in Me, I am never lost, nor is he ever lost to Me."

'''Prabhupāda:''' That’s it. That is permanent relationship with God. A devotee is seeing everywhere God. God is everywhere and everything is in God. Therefore, God is never missed by him. He is seeing this flower, but he is seeing this flower in God. And God is in the flower. God is in the flower means God’s energy is there. And it is resting in God; it has no separate existence. Sarvam ca mayi pasyati: it is not independent. It is dependent on existence of God. So, therefore, one who is seeing in that way, he is never missing God. He is always with God, God conscious. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He is never missing God. There is similar verse in the Brahma-samhita:
premanjana churita bhaktivilocanena
santa sadaiva hrdayesu vilokayanti
yam syamasundaram acintya guna svarupam
govindam adi purusam tam aham bhajami
A devotee who has developed love of Godhead, his eyes are filled with God consciousness. Therefore, he is always seeing Syamasundaram, Kṛṣṇa. He is not for a moment seeing anything else except Syamasundar, except God. Premanjana churita bhaktivilocanena santa sadaiva—sadaiva means always, constantly. Santa sadaiva hrdayesu vilokayanti—as soon as he wants to see God within heart, immediately he sees Kṛṣṇa—immediately. This is the position of a perfect devotee. He is always seeing God, nothing but God. What is there? But one who has not developed that sense, he sees this table, this flower, differently. But in everything a devotee sees God.
There is crude example: just like you have got a loveable child, and he is out of your sight. But as soon as you see his, some, toy, ‘Oh, this toy belongs to my child.’ Immediately you see your child, with the toy. As soon as you see the little shoe of your child, you immediately see the child. Is it not? So, it is a question of loving. If you have developed the loving sense, then you can see God everywhere. That is the criterion. So, therefore, our business is to develop that dormant love for Godhead.

'''John:''' [intake of breath]

'''Prabhupāda:''' And any religious system which helps in developing that loving attitude, that is first class. That is first class religion. Not these rituals. But the training, how one is developing that attitude of love of Godhead. That is the criterion. It doesn’t matter whether this is Hindu religion, Muslim religion, this religion—but it is actually helping the follower to develop love of Godhead. That is fine. Otherwise it is simply waste of time. That is the test: how much one is developing his love of Godhead. Otherwise, srama eva hi kevalam:
dharma svanustita pumsam visvaksena kathasu yat
notpadayet yadi ratim srama eva hi kevalam
[SB. 1.2.8]
If he does not develop love of Godhead by following the principles of his religion, then it is simply waste of time. That’s all.

'''John:''' So, in action, in love, devotion. Action without love, devotion, is not action.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Uh?

'''John:''' Would you say then that action without love and devotion is non-action?

'''Prabhupāda:''' No. Devotion is action. If I love you, then I shall give you to eat.

'''John:''' True.

'''Prabhupāda:''' So that is action. That is action, it is not inaction.

'''John:''' But, er…

'''Prabhupāda:''' If I love you, then whatever you are giving me I shall take.

'''John:''' Mhmm. Yes, I can accept this.

'''Prabhupāda:''' I open my mind to you: ‘I am feeling like this, what is your advice?’ Because I love you, therefore I disclose my mind to you. So, love means not inaction.
dadati pratighrinati bhunkte bhojayate
guhyam akyati pricchati ca
saradi na priti laksanam
[Upadeçämåta 4]
These are the six symptoms of love, that give and take, eat and give him to eat, and open your mind and hear from him.

'''John:''' Mhmm.

'''Prabhupāda:''' These are the six exchange of activities when there is love.

'''John:''' Mhmm.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Love is not inactive.

'''John:''' True. Then action can be smothered with personal things, which doesn’t stem from love. Then it becomes annulled?

'''Prabhupāda:''' What is that?

'''Ranchor:''' He was asking, his original question was, if there is activity without love, is that something…

'''Prabhupāda:''' No—There is activity without love, and there is activity with love. But the activity with love is different from activity without love. When I do not love, I simply act for taking my necessities from God: ‘Oh God, give us our daily bread,’ finish. He does not think that I also have to give something to God. That he does not think. There is no love. He wants to take from God. If God gives him, satisfies his senses, then he accepts God. But he does not want to satisfy the senses of God. There is no love. There is simply approach to God, but there is no love. Love, the extreme love, is that I shall give everything to God, I shall not accept anything from God. That is real love.
Just like gopis. They wanted to give everything to Kṛṣṇa, but they never prayed to Kṛṣṇa for their personal benefit. Never. That is the highest, topmost love.

'''John:''' Complete surrender.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes… Ahaituki apratihata yenatma samprasidati: that is pure satisfaction of our self. Give him little prasadam from me. You can give. You can take too—those who are visitors. No, they will take later on. You take. That's alright.
[Pause then break in recording]

'''Ranchor:''' …temple in the hippy area of London where all the hippies who have completely been degraded to the lowest stages of life—they are so degraded that they…

'''Prabhupāda:''' They are coming? In our temple?

'''Ranchor:''' Yes, in a small temple which we have—not at Bury Place.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. They are coming?

'''Ranchor:''' Yes, every evening.

'''Prabhupāda:''' They are chanting?

'''Ranchor:''' Sometimes.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Not always?

'''Ranchor:''' No.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Try to induce them to chant, then everything will come out okay. Simply induce them to chant. And don’t attempt anything more.

'''Ranchor:''' They like the prasadam very much.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. Give them prasadam and let them chant. That will make them gradually. So prasadam you can distribute. You can have Pancatattva picture, and offer—sri Kṛṣṇa caitanya prabhu nityananda—and give them prasadam. And chant the Pancatattva sri Kṛṣṇa caitanya prabhu nityananda and hare Kṛṣṇa hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa. Two songs, that’s all. Simple method. Then gradually everything will be alright. So, are you doing that?

'''Ranchor:''' Yes. Those who do chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, they enjoy very much to chant.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Then that’s alright. Let them hear, then they gradually they will chant. That will make them alright. Don’t talk amongst them about philosophy, they will not understand.

'''Ranchor:''' Yes, I’ve found that.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Mm?

'''Ranchor:''' I’ve found it very difficult to explain to them –

'''Prabhupāda:''' No. There is no need of talking philosophy. Simply you chant, and let them join. That’s all.

'''John:''' May I ask what is your mode of chanting. Is it to raise the vibrations the spirit within…?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, by this vibration he’ll be purified. His heart will be cleansed. Yes. It is a cleansing method. Just like before coming in here we cleanse this room nicely. That is first business. So, the materially contaminated living entity have got heaps of garbage’s within the mind. By this vibration everything will be cleared gradually. And when the mind is clear, they will understand. Then at that time if you speak something about God, they will understand. And before being cleansed, they will not understand. So, first cleansing, ceto darpana marjanam. Go on cleansing.

'''John:''' We have to do this personally too?

'''Prabhupāda:''' It will be perfect. Once, twice.

'''Ranchor:''' Is it also beneficial for them to hear the stories of Kṛṣṇa?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Mm?

'''Ranchor:''' It is also beneficial for them to hear the stories of Kṛṣṇa? From the Kṛṣṇa Book?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. But chanting will be more enthusiastically accepted. The reciting the narration of Kṛṣṇa, that is also as good as chanting. But for them this chanting will be more effective. Therefore, this chanting, kirtan, kirtan, go on with kirtan as much time as you can.

'''John:''' Do you introduce music in your chanting?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, we chant with music, with this mridanga. Not very much. Karatal, mridanga, that is sufficient.

'''John:''' Harmonic music, you know?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. That means it brings them in the ecstasy. Simply by khol karatal, that is sufficient.

'''John:''' Any aid which would raise the vibration to bring them within…

'''Prabhupāda:''' That’s chanting loudly Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare. That vibration if you chant loudly, that will change the whole atmosphere, immediately. By sabda brahma. [Pause] Vasudev is in India?

'''Pradyumna:''' Los Angeles.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Los Angeles, oh.

'''Pradyumna:''' He is suppose to help redecorate the new, the Temple. He is living in new apartment there across the street.

'''Prabhupāda:''' His wife is there?

'''Pradyumna:''' Yes. And I think son.

'''John:''' Can you see the ultimate goal, when the whole humanity will be united?

'''Prabhupāda:''' This is imagination. They will never. And to attempt for such thing is simply waste of time.

'''John:''' Then you feel the golden age, then, you come to the golden and the thing will, go again… It might come to this great spiritual high. And then start to go over the summit.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Golden age means that people are not bad, but there is no question of unity.

'''John:''' You don’t feel there be ever…

'''Prabhupāda:''' No that is not possible in this material world. Because the material world is being conducted by the three modes of material nature: satya-guna, tamo-guëa, rajo-guëa. So, there will be varieties of men and living entities always. So, there cannot be unity.
There can be unity on this platform of God consciousness, but not that everyone will be interested. That is not possible. If they take, but that is if, on condition–but that it will never come to be.

'''John:''' True. It’s a degree of elevation, recognition?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. So, not everyone will be elevated. Therefore, there cannot be any unity.

'''John:''' So, we must [indistinct]–and serving and stimulate, stimulate…

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. Just like this body. The tendency is to become old and then finished. [Sanskrit] Things are going on towards end. So, when the time [indistinct] will be ended. Now vanquished. So, that is the nature of material existence. Deteriorates, gradually. But this improvement means the improvement of the soul. The soul is covered now, but it can be improved by spiritual consciousness. Therefore, that is required. If one has to work for improvement, he has to work on the spiritual platform, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Materially if he works, that will be failure. That is not possible.

'''John:''' No, I don’t mean on a material level, I mean…

'''Prabhupāda:''' Material level, just like yesterday one gentleman came, on Sunday. He is attempting to cure leprosy. He is spending his energy for this purpose. So, I said this is simply waste of time. You cannot cure the leprosies. Leprosies will go on, even if you cure one or two men, what is their benefit? So your attempt will be simply futile. So, anyone is attempting on this material platform, just like these rascals United Nations, they are trying to be united. This is rascaldom. It will never be possible. They want to make a show. Just like [indistinct], Daridra narayan-seva. There is another rascaldom. For a hundred years they are attempting for daridra narayan-seva. The daridras are there. And they are becoming enfattened by raising subscription in the name of.
Similarly, this man also, he has raised subscription for clearing leprosy, but he is rich himself. No leper will be cured, and not a farthing will be expended for the leprosy. This is going on.

'''John:''' If this is the case then, we would accept the situation which we’re in, people being born into the world, they’re growing away from the light, and then eventually either they grow away from the light, that far. It brings this great division of humanity, and depending upon the influence of the parent, or the influence of the society that they’re born into, this has a possibility of teaching the child towards spirituality or Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

'''Prabhupāda:''' That is possible. You can teach, but you cannot expect that everyone will be able to take that teaching. That is not possible.

'''John:''' I see.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Your attempt should be to teach. That is good attempt, to teach about God consciousness. But other, material platform, it is not possible. Material platform, we will never be united, that is not possible.

'''John:''' No, true. But what I was trying to express was if, in the hope that eventually, somewhere out there, in time…

'''Prabhupāda:''' You can hope, but that is hope against hope.

'''John:''' They won’t become aware of spiritual consciousness?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Spiritual consciousness they will be aware; I am speaking on the material platform.

'''John:''' Ah, I beg your pardon.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Spiritual consciousness they will be.

'''John:''' This is what I…

'''Prabhupāda:''' In any condition of life, if one is eager to take up Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is possible. That is possible.

'''John:''' Because there’s a point in your life…

'''Prabhupāda:''' Ahaituki, these very words—ahaituki apratihata—spiritual consciousness can advance without any check. That is possible.

'''John:''' Well, will that condition eventually come when it will be a greater majority than it is at the moment in the world, when people are aware of spiritual consciousness?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, let us hope like that. When the majority of the people are spiritually conscious, then this whole world will be spiritual conscious.

'''John:''' Well, won’t this then bring humanity closer together, and eventually bring…

'''Prabhupāda:''' Why humanity? All living entities.

'''John:''' All living entities, yes.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. Spiritually means all living entities.

'''John:''' The great problem, as I see it, is that the great agony in the world is caused by man upon earth, though the lack of spiritual consciousness.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, therefore we are spreading this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Our business. That is spiritual consciousness.

'''John:''' We’re going towards a goal which will bring about enlightenment and peace.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. As soon as one becomes spiritually conscious, he becomes peaceful. Otherwise there is no peace. There is no question of peace.

'''John:''' So, this is the goal.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. The goal is to understand what is God. What is my relationship with God.

'''John:''' But not in a selfish way, surely.

'''Prabhupāda:''' When one comes to God, he is no more selfish. He is broadminded, mahatma, he is called mahatma. A God conscious man, he is never selfish. He is broadminded.

'''John:''' So, it’s how much we work now, and how much we work to pull together now, is the foundation.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Another point is, unless the person is free from sinful activities, he cannot understand God. [pause]

'''John:''' What does one do to be a follower?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Mm?

'''John:''' What does one do to be with you, working with you?

'''Prabhupāda:''' What is that?

'''Ranchor:''' What does one do to become a disciple?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Suffering is due to sinful activities.

'''Devotee:''' His question is, to work with you, and the movement, what does one have to do?

'''Prabhupāda:''' We welcome everyone.

'''John:''' You see, because I’m already working, and disposed to Baha’u’llah and the followers of Baha’u’llah.

'''Prabhupāda:''' First of all, you have to understand our philosophy.

'''John:''' Now I’m trying to sort out a situation in my own life.

'''Prabhupāda:''' If you are interested, then you come to us.

'''John:''' Mm.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Live with us, try to understand the philosophy. Then there is proposal to work with us. You are welcome. You can live here, attend our class, ask, and try to understand the philosophy. This way, when you understand the philosophy, then there is question of working. So, you are welcome. You can live here we have got sufficient place. You can live here. You can attend the class. Read our books. Put question when you do not understand. In this way. That is working with us. Then, when you are competent, then we want, then you can go, open a center. Or you can remain here. We give all freedom. But there is difficulty here, that you cannot smoke, you cannot drink, even tea, coffee. These are prohibited. Here there is no meat eating. So, outsiders sometimes they feel inconvenienced. Those who are addicted to drink tea, coffee, to smoke, meat eating, they’ll find difficult. We don’t allow these things.

'''John:''' You have a set covenant; you know which is a moral code?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Mm?

'''Pradyumna:''' We have our moral [indistinct] have rules and regulations?

'''Bhajahari:''' We have four principles, they are no gambling, no intoxication, no illicit sex life, no animal foodstuffs [indistinct].

'''Prabhupāda:''' [aside:] [indistinct] you coming.

'''John:''' I’m wrong but I’ll just asked our friend a question, my brother. How can one serve God without serving humanity?

'''Prabhupāda:''' If you serve God, humanity is automatically served. Just like if you water the root of the tree, the leaves of the tree are automatically served. You don’t require to make separate endeavour. Just like we are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Is it not service to humanity, all over the world?

'''John:''' Exactly.

'''Prabhupāda:''' We are giving them Kṛṣṇa consciousness, giving them prasadam, giving them shelter. Is it not service to the humanity?

'''John:''' Exactly.

'''Prabhupāda:''' So, this is automatically done. We don’t require to make a separate attempt. Everything is done, complete. If one takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

'''John:''' Can one lose sight of the process?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Sarvarhanam acyute’ja. Arhanam means worship. So, everything becomes worshiped. Acyute’ja, by serving Acyuta, by worshipping Acyuta, Kṛṣṇa. Tatha sarvarhanam acyute’ja, pranopar’acyutad’indriyanam. Just like if you supply foodstuffs to the stomach, all the parts of the body become embryonic. Similarly, if you serve God, then everything is God’s part and parcel, so everything becomes served.

'''John:''' So, there must always be an object of devotion, and the objects of devotion are infinite.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Mmm?

'''John:''' So, there must always be the object of devotion. And the objects of devotion are infinite.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.

'''Ranchor:''' Man’s position as an infinitesimal part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa’s energy is to render service to Kṛṣṇa. The part should render service to the whole. But if the individual part is trying to satisfy itself independently of the whole, independently of Kṛṣṇa, then he can never find satisfaction.

'''John:''' Agreed, but if he’s never enlightened, how can he ever find satisfaction?

'''Ranchor:''' The enlightenment can come, because Kṛṣṇa sends His representative to provide that enlightenment.

'''John:''' What happens when they ignore this?

'''Ranchor:''' Then…

'''John:''' Not in a single situation, but in a manifold situation. American situation, Great Britain, French, where you get two great surges of power, one against the other.

'''Ranchor:''' This is the material world.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Find that verse, vyavasāyātmikā buddhir ekeha kuru-nandana. bahu-śākhā hy anantāś ca buddhayo ’vyavasāyinām. [Bg. 2.41]

'''John:''' [indistinct] Where you stand in this situation, whether you accept that situation, or you don’t accept that situation, you either join forces with the thing you are against or for.

'''Pradyumna:''' [reads]
vyavasāyātmikā buddhir
ekeha kuru-nandana
bahu-śākhā hy anantāś ca
buddhayo ’vyavasāyinām
[Bg. 2.41]
"Those who are on this path are resolute in purpose and their aim is one. O beloved child of the Kurus, the intelligence of those who are irresolute is many-branched."

'''Prabhupāda:''' Explain.

'''Pradyumna:''' [reads purport] “A strong faith in Kṛṣṇa consciousness..." [continues full purport]

[break]

'''John:''' ...situation to serve.

'''Ranchor:''' That is our choice. Either we can serve māyā, Kṛṣṇa’s material energy, in order to try to gain satisfaction for ourselves, or else we can serve Kṛṣṇa directly. In this way we can automatically gain satisfaction, because Kṛṣṇa, the root of the tree, is being watered. So automatically we find satisfaction. But if we wish to serve ourselves, to serve our own interests, then we can come again and again. We can be born in different species of life to enjoy according to our desires.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Not to enjoy but to suffer. [laughter] There is not enjoyment. Where is enjoyment?

'''Ranchor:''' Real enjoyment comes from serving Kṛṣṇa.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.

'''Ranchor:''' The illusion of enjoyment is there. The foolish man thinks that he is enjoying, just like the pig is tasting stool, but he is thinking that this is enjoyment.

'''John:''' Yes, right, exactly.

'''Ranchor:''' So, in this society very few people can understand that I am suffering. That is actually the beginning of intelligent life, of civilized human life.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Māyā means accepting suffering as enjoyment. This is māyā. The man is working day and night hard, and eating a small piece of bread, a cup of tea, and he is thinking he is enjoying. I have seen it. One publisher in New York. He is working so hard that he has no time, and he was eating a cup of tea and one sandwich, that’s all. But he is thinking that he is enjoying. This is māyā. He is working hard but he is thinking he is enjoying. He does not think that if I am enjoying, then why I have to work so hard?

'''John:''' It’s the thing you're striving to work for, isn’t it?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Huh?

'''John:''' It’s the thing called love for.

'''Prabhupāda:''' For working?

'''John:''' What you are devoted to. It can be either money, a goal, or God, or your wife or family, infinite varieties of devotion.

'''Prabhupāda:''' No. To work for Kṛṣṇa, that is natural.

'''John:''' Pardon?

'''Prabhupāda:''' That is natural. Just like, your hand, part and parcel of your body, it is working. You are putting your hand in your pockets, you are getting your handkerchief. So, it is working. That is natural. But if your hand is engaged for polishing my shoes, is that natural?

'''John:''' It could be done and motivised, because of the love for you.

'''Prabhupāda:''' But first of all, your hand is meant for working for you. That is natural. But if your hand is engaged for working for others, without working for you, is that natural?

'''John:''' Devotion surely.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Hmm? What is this?

'''Ranchor:''' He says, devotion…

'''Prabhupāda:''' What is this devotion? If your hand is engaged for other purposes, not for your own purposes, is that natural?

'''John:''' Well, you do it for the love of the person, or the love or the devotion…

'''Prabhupāda:''' Love it may be, but how long you can do? You are putting your hand in the pocket, taking the handkerchief, that is natural, you can do it perpetually. But if your hand is engaged for some other purpose, not for your body’s purpose, how long you can be engaged? You will be tired.

'''John:''' It’s infinite isn’t it?

'''Prabhupāda:''' It is a simple thing. Your hand cannot be engaged for any other purpose. Your hand can be engaged for your purpose. Therefore, if we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, we can be perpetually engaged in Kṛṣṇa’s service. Not in maya’s service—that is troublesome.

'''John:''' I see your point. So, whatever you lay your hands to is done with love, your serving Kṛṣṇa.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Then you cannot love anyone else, except Kṛṣṇa.

'''John:''' That’s what I mean.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. To love anyone else, that is unnatural. But if you love Kṛṣṇa, then all others are loved. That is another thing. These things are understood when you are actually engaged in the service of Kṛṣṇa. These are revelation.

'''John:''' In the recording, do you want?

'''Prabhupāda:''' So, this may be published.

'''John:''' It is good. Which means you need fuel for fire, if you want fire to burn, one must be devoted to the fire, to come away from the cold to the heat of the fire. [break] The first time you come under a master, or a mistress, and you go from grade to another. This is a perpetual, continual process. When you stop going to school, when you wish to leave school and to do your own thing within the world, to cut out and go your own way. And when you do that you become lost in a situation which can be a quagmire. But, sometime I feel that in your life you come to a situation, you come to a realisation, where you realize that you made a mistake and you must go back to school, start learning the true essence of school, the true essence of life.

'''Ranchor:''' And then the devotee, when he is receiving knowledge form, the spiritual master, he considers himself to eternally be learning from his spiritual master. At no time can he ever leave the instructions behind. At no time is he ever qualified simply to exits without the guidance of his spiritual master.

'''John:''' But this too, you see, is learning.

'''Prabhupāda:''' They are applying the spreading of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is application, practical. They are not only learning Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but they are teaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness, for the benefit of humanity.

'''Bhajahari:''' This evening we have a festival in a nearby town, a Hare Kṛṣṇa festival.

'''John:''' But you understand me in this concept? It’s pointless learning a trade if you’re never going to apply it.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, that we are doing. We are applying.

'''John:''' Because there’s a lot of things going on where they learn, play the piano, they never play it to the public. Nobody’s ever hearing this piece of music, but they play to their own selves in a room. They have a beautiful gift of God, they’ve developed it to the highest pitch, but what joy are they giving it to the world? They are keeping it all to themselves, never letting this joy come out. This great love they have for music, which is of God, they’re keeping it all within themselves, and not letting nothing come out. They play in a silent room by themselves. A lot of people pray, you know? They get it together with God, to be saved. It’s like a person sitting in a room, playing the piano to themselves. In a soundproof room. Nobody’s getting the benefit of this beautiful thing, which is of God.

'''Ranchor:''' When Lord Chaitanya inaugurated this movement five hundred years ago, his idea was simply that we should spread the chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa so that everybody could partake in that chanting of the holy names of God. Because, as Srila Prabhupäda has explained, that simply by chanting Kṛṣṇa’s names, one can…

'''Prabhupāda:''' Talking, also, about Kṛṣṇa. We are talking, just like we are referring to Bhagavad-gétä, and Bhagavat, this is also chanting. When you talk about Kṛṣṇa, about His teaching, about Himself, that is also chanting.

'''Ranchor:''' By practising this, glorifying God—kirtan literally means to glorify—by chanting the glories of God in this way, everyone can partake. That is the greatest realisation of our spiritual life, that we should wish to tell others. And Kṛṣṇa, at the end of Kṛṣṇa declared that, ‘My devotee, who is teaching this science, of the Bhagavad-gétä, to the other devotees, he is dearest of all to Me. He is the topmost devotee. So, actually, the highest ideals of this movement are that we should preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Not simply that we should retire, into the forest, and practise this on our own. But that we should spread it. And in that way our own realisation will increase.

'''John:''' Well you know in America, they’ve got bags of money, they come to this country. They strip this country, they strip the world, bare of all the priceless creations. They call them priceless creations, they take them back to their selves and they lock them up, and they say this is mine.

'''Ranchor:''' But the only things that they can take are the things which are actually worth nothing.

'''John:''' Yes, but the point is, you see, that all these beautiful things that are created from man’s creation. Along comes somebody [indistinct] pick up the Bhagavat, and to pick up all these things, lock them up and say this is mine. They pick up all the readings and the teachings of Bhagavat and put it within their own cellar and say this is mine. You know? Same as the guy that’s picking up the picture, pearl of great price, and says this is mine. What is his function?

'''Ranchor:''' Nobody can stop the teachings of God being made known to the people, because that is God’s wish.

'''Prabhupāda:''' When you talk of Kṛṣṇa, it is not of the mind or intelligence.

'''John:''' No but you understand me?

'''Prabhupāda:''' It is spiritual. It is completely beyond intelligence. People, generally, they do not understand what is soul, what is spirit. It is beyond intelligence. Beyond this gross body there is subtle mind. Beyond the subtle mind there is intelligence. And beyond intelligence there is spirit soul. So, when you talk of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we talk on that platform, the spiritual platform. Not on the platform of intellectual, not on the platform of mental speculation.

'''John:''' This is the point. You see, this is the thing that’s going on in the world. We are…

'''Prabhupāda:''' In the world there is going on mental speculation, and intellectual [indistinct], but they have no knowledge of the spiritual platform. That is the defect.

'''John:''' And this is the dividing line from the higher consciousness.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. They will take spiritual platform as mental platform. They mistake it. That is not. Mental platform is also material. Intellectual platform is also material. Spiritual platform is transcendental to all these platforms.

'''John:''' This the tragedy then. That the abuse of all the creative energy of man. The waste.

'''Ranchor:''' In the Vedic civilisation, the civilisation that existed prior to five thousand years ago, which was centred upon service to God, in that civilisation all the arts and sciences were used for the glorification of God.

'''John:''' This I can accept, but the point is what’s the point. If you know this other set-up is going to waste[?]. What’s the point of going to work? If you know this other set-up’s going to abuse your energies. In only that direction.

'''Ranchor:''' They can’t diminish our service to Kṛṣṇa. Anyone who renders even the smallest service to Kṛṣṇa—that can never be destroyed. The potency of that service is always there. So, no matter how small our service to Kṛṣṇa is, the effect will be there. Nobody can destroy it. So simultaneously our business also is that we can enlighten those persons who would destroy our service to Kṛṣṇa. That can be done. It’s not impossible. That is why this movement is in existence. Because actually, simply if people can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and if they can read Śrīla Prabhupāda’s books, then that will help them to understand that this life is meant for serving Kṛṣṇa. It is not meant for serving ourselves. And unity will come. But never complete unity. Peacefulness will come. [indisinct]