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<div class="code">720604R1-MEXICO CITY - June 04, 1972 - 61:31 Minutes</div>


<mp3player>https://s3.amazonaws.com/vanipedia/full/1972/720604R1-MEXICO_CITY.mp3</mp3player>


(conversation with Martin, a Marine Biologist)

'''Prabhupāda:''' Marine biologist. How many forms of fishes are there within the ocean? I know. I know. (laughter)

'''Martin:''' That is why I'm here.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Nine hundred thousands of different forms of aquatics. Nine hundred thousands. ''Jalajā nava-lakṣāni'' (Padma Purāṇa). ''Jalajā'' means species of living beings born in the water. They are nine hundred thousand. How many you have got experience in your biology?

'''Martin:''' I studied one.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Huh?

'''Martin:''' I studied one.

'''Prabhupāda:''' One only?

'''Martin:''' One. (laughs) I, I concentrated on one. I learned of some of the . . . (indistinct) . . . (sound of thunder), maybe a thousand.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Nine hundred thousand. Exact number.

(aside) Bring that socket.

'''Pradyumna:''' Oh, this?

'''Śyāmasundara:''' That two-way. It's on top of the desk.

'''Prabhupāda:''' ''Jalajā nava-lakṣāni sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati''. And two millions of trees and plants, botany, botanical. ''Jalajā nava-lakṣāni sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati'', ''kṛmayo rudra-saṅkhyakā.'' Insects, there are eleven hundred thousands forms. ''Kṛmayo rudra-saṅkhyakā''. Then, ''pakṣiṇāṁ daśa-lakṣaṇam''. From insect, they become flies and birds. ''Pakṣiṇāṁ daśa-lakṣaṇam'', one million. Then from birds, the beasts come, four-legged, ''triṁśal-lakṣāṇi'': three million species of beasts.

Then from beasts, the human form comes—either from monkey or from lion or from cows. Out of these three . . . ''sattva-guṇa'', ''rajo-guṇa'', ''tamo-guṇa''. Those who are coming through ''rajo-guṇa'', their last birth before human form of birth is lion. And those who are coming in the form ignorance, Darwin's father-in-law, (laughs) monkey, and ignorance. And those who are coming in goodness, their last form of birth is cow.

So this is our scientific information from the ''Vedas''. We haven't got to make a research. Everything is there. That is Vedic knowledge. They have got already everything written there. The astronomy, everything is written there, simply you have to calculate. Astrology, we say simply mathematical calculation: if the moon is in this position and the other stars is in this position, then the effect will be like this and the result will be like this. Like that. So you haven't got to make search or research. It is already there. Similarly, this Darwin's theory is there in two lines:

:''aśītiṁ caturāṁs caiva''
:''lakṣāṁs tāñ jīva-jātiṣu''
:''bhramadbhiḥ puruṣair prāptaṁ''
:''mānuṣaṁ janma-paryāyāt''
:(Padma Purana)

''Asati'', ''asati'' means eighty; ''catura'' means four. Eighty and four ''lakṣāṇi'', ''lakhs'', 100,000. Eighty-four hundred thousand, that means 8,400,000. ''Aśītiṁ caturāṁs caiva lakṣāṁs tāñ jīva-jātiṣu''. ''Jīva'' means living entity; ''jāti'' means species. ''Jīva-jātiṣu. Brahmadbhiḥ'': the living entity is wandering, or transmigrating, from aquatics to trees, plants, then insect, then birds, then beasts. In this way, the last is human form of life. ''Brahmadbhiḥ''. ''Brahmadbhiḥ'', wandering. ''Puruṣair prāptaṁ'', last he is getting ''mānuṣaṁ jiva . . . janma-paryāyāt'', by the evolution of birth.

Now this form is for understanding Govinda, God. The other forms, they cannot. So if in this form the living entity does not contact Govinda . . . contacting Govinda means surrendering unto Govinda. As Kṛṣṇa says: "Surrender unto Me." ''Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate'' ([[BG 7.19 (1972)|BG 7.19]]). So after many, many, many millions of births, when one is actually in full knowledge, he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. That is perfection. Then he goes back to home, back to Godhead. That is our program, Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

'''Martin:''' So there's something higher than human form?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Oh, yes. The demigods, ''deva'', ''deva-tiryaṅ-narādiṣu'' ([[SB 1.2.34|SB 1.2.34]]). Generally three divisions: demigods, human beings and other than human beings.

'''Martin:''' Primitive cavemen?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Huh?

'''Martin:''' Primitive cavemen?

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, not only cavemen: the animals, birds, beasts. Other than.

'''Martin:''' Oh, I see. (sound of thunder)

'''Prabhupāda:''' But this human form of life is better than demigods' life, because demigods, they are materially very opulent. Just like when the Americans came in India, they thought, "Demigods." Is it not?

'''Martin:''' The Indians thought. Hmm.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Because they were better looking, good looking, intelligent, powerful. Similarly, just like this controller or director of this rain department is Indra. This thundering, it is under his direction this thundering is going on. He throws the thunderbolts and cracks the mountain, and then you get chunks.

That is his business. As in government there are different departments, similarly, God has got different departments, and the in-charge of that department is a demigod. Creation, Brahmā; sustenance or maintenance, Himself, Viṣṇu; and dissolution, Lord Śiva.

'''Martin:''' How is the human life better than that?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Huh?

'''Martin:''' How is human life better than the demigod?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Better than in this way, that just like here also in this mat . . . on this planet, those who are richer section, they particularly do not care to know what is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They're proud, puffed-up for material opulence: "Uh. What is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Let us enjoy, drink."

That is their position. So it is a curse for them. Their richness is a curse for them, that they cannot adore such a nice movement. The middle-class section, they are being attracted. Similarly, the demigods, they have got very, very higher standard of life, duration of life, beauty, opulence, facilities, so generally they forget. Not forget; they are servant. Just like government servant does not mean a devotee. So they are devotee, officially devotee.

They, they offer their obeisances to Kṛṣṇa. ''Śiva-viriñci-nutam'' ([[SB 11.5.33|SB 11.5.33]]), worship by Lord Śiva or Lord Brahmā, but their devotion is conditional because they're posted in such high post, so they may remain in their post. In this way, exchange. But in the human society you'll find devotees, there is no question of exchange; it is simply love. (sound of thunder)

'''Martin:''' These demigods are what we call angels?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.

'''Śyāmasundara:''' So how does science fit in with all of this?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Hmm? Let him speak.

'''Martin:''' This is why I'm here. I know science . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' Hmm? So he can . . .

'''Martin:''' I, I know a bit of where it's going, and I don't find it compelling, fulfilling.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.

'''Martin:''' It's just the empty one half of the world.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Scientist business is he can become a great devotee. Just like:

:''idam hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā''
:''sviṣṭasya sūktasya ca buddhi-dattayoḥ''
:''avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito''
:''yad-uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam''
:([[SB 1.5.22|SB 1.5.22]])

(aside) You sit down. Why you don't sit down, like that.

''Yad-uttamaśloka-guṇanuvarṇanam. Idam hi puṁsa'', ''sviṣṭasya'' . . . ''tapa'' . . . ''sūktasya tapasaḥ''. If you are scientist, scientist means you are learned, learned scholar. You know; you've heard from the books so many things. So your duty will be that whatever you have learned, you try to explain all these scientific research work as qualification of the Supreme Lord. Any scientific law, just like law of gravity . . .

(aside) You are following?

'''Devotee:''' ''Si'', ''si''.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Law of gravity . . . the big, big planets are floating in the air. Now you can explain how it is floating. The hint is already there in the ''Bhagavad-gītā'', that He enters. ''Viṣṭabhyā idaṁ kṛtsnam ekāṁśena sthito jagat'' ([[BG 10.42 (1972)|BG 10.42]]), ''dharayani aham ojasam'' that, "I enter into this universe, and by My prowess they are floating." These hints are there. Now you are a scientist; if you are actually devotee, then you try to explain from your scientific explanation that this floating is possible because God has entered within it.

That is your duty. And because you're scientist, your explanation from the scientific point of view, how God has entered, how He is acting, that will be very well received by the public. So that will be great service. Actually that is the fact. It is already stated there that, "I enter." We can understand. Yes. We believe. I'll explain. Just like that balloon. What is that gas? Hydrogen gas?

'''Martin:''' Helium.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Huh?

'''Martin:''' Helium gas.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Helium gas. So helium gas has entered within the balloon, and it is floating. (laughter) So if the helium gas can float, cannot God float? If helium gas has so much power, the God is less than helium gas or He is more than helium gas? So what is the difficulty to understand? God says: "I enter." So similarly, the helium gas enters and it makes possible that it floats. So where is the difficulty to understand? I see in my eyes. So He can become big helium gas. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, ''raso 'ham apsu kaunteya'' ([[BG 7.8 (1972)|BG 7.8]]): "I am the taste of the water." Water is important. We are drinking water for the taste. That taste is Kṛṣṇa. Similarly, if you explain this law of gravitation which we have discovered is Kṛṣṇa, prove it by your scientific knowledge, that will be your service.

Actually that is the fact. That is the fact. But you have to explain, just like I have given you this example. This is scientific. As you can float a balloon by creating helium gas, so there must be some gas like that; Kṛṣṇa enters into each and every planet or universe and it floats, that's all. They, not only the planets are floating, the universes are also floating. So you accept this theory or not? If not, clearly explain.

'''Martin:''' I, I, I cannot reject it.

'''Prabhupāda:''' That's . . .

'''Martin:''' Because you know more about it than I do.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Thank you very much.

'''Martin:''' You are obviously a wise man.

'''Prabhupāda:''' That should be the attitude. That is the way of understanding. ''Upadekṣyanti te jñānaṁ jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ'' ([[BG 4.34 (1972)|BG 4.34]]). Those who are ''tattva-darśiḥ'', those who have seen the truth, we have to take knowledge from them—that is direction in the ''Bhagavad-gītā''—not from the third-class men. One who has seen, one who has known, you have to take knowledge from him, ''tattva-darśiḥ''.

''Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā'' ([[BG 4.34 (1972)|BG 4.34]]). You have to understand by surrendering, by rendering service and by question, three things. You cannot question simply. There must be service and surrender, then question will be nice. And if all of a sudden you come and question, that answer will not be sufficient.

Just I am drinking this water because there is taste. At this time, if you can . . . if you give me some other juice, I'll not like. I'll like to take . . . drink water, because there is peculiar taste that will satisfy my thirst. That thirst-quenching taste is Kṛṣṇa. So immediately you can remember Kṛṣṇa, "Here is Kṛṣṇa." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. ''Raso 'ham apsu kaunteya'' ([[BG 7.8 (1972)|BG 7.8]]).

There is no need of seeing Kṛṣṇa. You can perceive Kṛṣṇa while drinking water if you have got such power of perception. And the hints are already there in the ''Bhagavad-gītā''. You can argue, "Where is Kṛṣṇa? I do not see Kṛṣṇa. How can I . . ." Kṛṣṇa says: "All right, you try to realize Me in this way. While you drink water, you know that taste is Myself." So you can see or perceive Kṛṣṇa while drinking water. So everyone is drinking water. Who cannot perceive Kṛṣṇa? What is the difficulty? Kṛṣṇa's giving hints, "You worship Me like that." And God, at the present moment, God can be seen eye to eye, but He can be perceived, ''anubhavānanda''. What is that word? ''Parasya'' . . .?

'''Pradyumna:''' ''Parasyānubhavātmanaḥ''.

'''Devotee:''' ''Parasyānubhavātmanaḥ''.

'''Prabhupāda:''' ''Parasyānubhavātmanam. Anubhavātmanaḥ''. So at the present moment we can understand God by ''anubhava'': "Here is God." The hint is given God . . . by God that ''raso 'ham apsu kaunteya'', that "I am the taste of water." You cannot create this taste. You can make water, hydrogen-oxygen mixing, but you cannot create the taste so that that water may be taken. Is it possible?

'''Martin:''' It is possible to make water, and I rely on you to say that it is not possible to make the taste.

'''Prabhupāda:''' That . . . just like from perspiration we are also creating water, but nobody is going to drink that water. Nobody is coming to lick my body, "Here is water." (laughter) That is not possible.

'''Śyāmasundara:''' Even if they mix hydrogen and oxygen and get water, still, where does the hydrogen and oxygen come from?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. Wherefrom the chemical comes? Such vast seawater, so where you got so much chemical? Then the next question, that "Who supplies the chemicals?"

'''Martin:''' I've been there before. They all come down the same . . . they all come to the same place. You said that it is possible to see God eye to eye.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yeah.

'''Martin:''' How can this be done?

'''Prabhupāda:''' You have to be qualified.

'''Martin:''' How can you be qualified?

'''Prabhupāda:''' This is the process going on in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. You become devotee, you follow the rules and regulations, the prescribed method, you'll see God. You'll see constantly, twenty-four hours. ''Santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti'', ''premāñjana cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena'' (Bs. 5.38). If you have developed such devotion and love for God, then you will see always God.

Just like if you have got a child whom you very much love, you'll see the child always in front of you. Always. It is due to love. So similarly, you have to develop love for Kṛṣṇa and you'll see Him. He can be seen by love, not by your method. He is not under any method, but He is under love. So you have to develop love, and then you'll see.

(aside) There is no flavor? Is it any flavor?

'''Martin:''' It's very faint.

'''Śyāmasundara:''' Mexican incense.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Oh.

'''Śyāmasundara:''' Christian incense.

'''Prabhupāda:''' (indistinct) . . . so all science of God is described in ''Bhagavad-gītā.''

'''Śyāmasundara:''' This morning you said that Kṛṣṇa is the original scientist because . . . because He is a scientist, then we can have our science, as a reflection

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. The, ah . . . do you accept it He is the original scientist?

'''Martin:''' I can accept the fact that Kṛṣṇa, being God, created everything which science studies now.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. That's right. That is the fact. That is the fact. So despite my becoming a scientist, I am a subordinate scientist. Our . . . my scientific research is going on under the direction of Kṛṣṇa. Because the experiment which you are making in the laboratory, the ingredients, they are produced from Kṛṣṇa.

The mind with which you are working, that is produced by Kṛṣṇa. And the direction, you are receiving from Kṛṣṇa. Therefore when you prepare something, that is Kṛṣṇa's production. Kṛṣṇa is indirect cause and you are direct cause. 

(aside to Śyāmasundara) The other day while coming on the plane you told me that they are trying to make copy of the brain of . . .

'''Śyāmasundara:''' Einstein.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Einstein. So still, if you can copy, even if you can copy, you are not the original scientist, because that brain of Einstein is already created. So original creation is God's. So you can imitate. So you are imitator scientist. (break) Is it not?

'''Martin:''' It's true.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Who has created the brain of Professor Einstein? You have not created. You are trying to make a Xerox copy, that's all. But the original is already there. Now who has created the original brain? Then you have to go to God. But you have not created. It is not my men. If man could create such brain, then, "Ah, never mind the professor has died. We create another person like."

That you cannot. So even if you are able to imitate, you are not the supreme scientist. First of all, it is doubtful. So accepting that you will be able to copy, a Xerox copy of Einstein's brain, that does not give you the credit. The credit is already there, God's credit. At least we shall not give you any credit. We shall speak that the original brain is created by God. You cannot create. If you have the power to create, then there was no necessity of copying. You could create better brain.

That you haven't got. You are trying to take Xerox copy from that brain. Just like big, big aeroplanes are flying, but their . . . the shape is made after the bird. The original shape, bird, is created by God. He has got the same type of machine even within an insect, small insect flying. You can create a small aeroplane like that? That is not possible. Then what is your credit?

Here is God's credit, a small fly, near water. You create it. You see? You can create a big, but you cannot a small. Therefore you are incapable. But God can create the biggest and the smallest. ''Aṇor aṇīyān mahato mahīyān'' (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 1.2.20). He can create the greater than the greatest and the smaller than the smallest.

'''Śyāmasundara:''' And our big airplane cannot reproduce another airplane.

'''Prabhupāda:''' That's it. You cannot create a male aeroplane and female aeroplane so that you haven't got to manufacture a third one. The third one is produced. Why third one? Third millions. And again third millions, another million, another million. That is God's creation. That means He has got different energies.

He pushes on one button of one energy and the production goes on. ''Sa asṛjata'', ''sa īkṣata''. These are the Vedic explanation. His energies are so subtle. Just like nowadays electronic, one television button you press, and thousands and thousands of miles away something is happening you see. So if it is materially possible . . . it is nothing but exhibition of the energy of the human brain.

So if human brain can exhibit such wonderful activities, how much God can do? He has got better brain, that's all, or the best brain. If you have got brain, that's all right, but He has got the best brain, ''param''. Therefore He is called ''parampuruṣa'', ''parameśvara''. ''Parama'' means the best, the supreme. God is like you, like me. He has got also two hands, two legs, Kṛṣṇa. But His brain is different.

Just like you are scientist, your brain is better than me, or his brain is better than you, and his brain is better than him. In this way you go on searching. When you find the brain which has no more better, that is God. That is God. As you are finding out better brain than you, he is better than his, he better than his—you go on researching—when you find out some brain which surpasses everyone's and nobody surpasses Him, that is God. This is our definition of God.

How can I deny it? We don't accept blindly anyone as God, incarnation of God. We want to see who has got the best brain, who has got the best opulence, who has got the best beauty, who has got the best knowledge, who has got the best strength. All combined together, if we find in some person, that is God. That we have found in Kṛṣṇa, therefore He is God.

'''Martin:''' But how can I know with my inferior brain . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' Huh?

'''Martin:''' . . . who has the best brain?

'''Prabhupāda:''' That you can understand. Just like you are a scientist brain. You can do something which I cannot do. That much I must accept that you have got better brain. What is the difficulty?

'''Martin:''' But . . . how can I know?

'''Prabhupāda:''' You can know directly that, "He is doing better than me." What is the difficulty? I can see . . . just like all my disciples, they are following me. Why? Because they understand that "Our spiritual master explains about God better than us." Therefore they are surrendering. I am not bribing them. They are not fools. They have got very nice brain to act.

So they accept me as the spiritual master brain because they understand it that "He can explain about God better than me." Where is the difficulty? These, all my disciples, surrenders unto me because they have found in me a better brain in explaining what is God. Direct perception. There is no question of indirect understanding. It is direct understanding.

And the ''Vedas'' also advises that, "Go to a better man," ''śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham'' (MU 1.2.12), "one who heard better, and wise from the Vedic knowledge, and ''brahma'' . . . as a result of it he has become fully devoted to Kṛṣṇa," ''brahma-niṣṭham''. These are the qualification of spiritual master. His knowledge is perfect according to the Vedic injunction, and by having that knowledge he has become a perfect devotee of the Lord. These two things have to be seen. Then he is a spiritual master.

'''Martin:''' But there are many spiritual masters in the world. Each says what you say.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Each says, but you have to judge. Just like when you go to purchase a two-shillings'-worth goods, you go to different stores. Everyone says: "Oh, my thing is very nice." But you have to judge which one is best. That depends on you. If you are a fool, then somebody will cheat you. And if you are not a fool, then you will know . . . just like these rascals, they call themselves God.

Such a fools can cheat another fool only. But one who knows what is God, he'll not accept it. One who knows Kṛṣṇa, he'll not accept him as God. He'll immediately compare, "What you have done like Kṛṣṇa or better than Kṛṣṇa then I shall accept you God? We have already our God, Kṛṣṇa. Now you prove that you are better than Kṛṣṇa or equal to Kṛṣṇa." That he cannot, so why I shall accept him God?

Why shall I accept him spiritual master? That depends on your intelligence. If you are less intelligent, then you'll be cheated by this false God. So everyone has got intelligence, individuality, power of understanding, so you should try to use them, and then you can understand.

'''Śyāmasundara:''' (to guest) I'd like to ask what do the scientists explain is the origin of life. Do they have any explanation how life is caused?

'''Martin:''' Oh, the scientists concern themselves with the process, not the reason. They, right now, scientists are spending a tremendous amount of time duplicating this process, trying to be able to produce life in the laboratory. This now, they are saying that thus they will be able to say that this is how life started in the beginning of the world. It does not take . . . scientists don't concern themselves with why life started, just how, what method.

'''Śyāmasundara:''' What do they think, how it started?

'''Martin:''' Oh, they think life started by the effect of the atmosphere . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' Then the atmosphere is the cause. Now the next question is, "Who created the atmosphere?" (break)

'''Martin:''' This doesn't . . . this is why I feel science . . . I do not feel . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' They have not found out the ultimate cause. They take a process which is going in the middle way, therefore their science is imperfect. But our science is perfect. We have found out the ultimate cause.

:''īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇah''
:''sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ''
:''anādir ādir govindaḥ''
:''sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam''
:(Bs. 5.1)

The cause of all causes. Therefore our science is perfect. We have found out the cause of all causes. But the material scientists, they simply can look to the process, how it is working. Just like a child sees the machine, how it is working, but he cannot know who has produced the machine. Therefore we see the child scientist. (laughter) Not better scientist.

'''Śyāmasundara:''' What is the definition of science?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Perfect knowledge.

'''Śyāmasundara:''' Perfect knowledge.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Is it not?

'''Martin:''' I don't know.

'''Prabhupāda:''' You do not know what is the meaning of science?

'''Martin:''' No, I don't.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Then why you call science? How do you call, "This is scientific"?

'''Martin:''' I can only give you my definition of science. Science is that endeavor of human beings by which they attempt to find out why things happen and how they happen.

'''Prabhupāda:''' That means perfect knowledge. Ah, I am seeing that this rose flower is growing, but I do not know how it is growing. If I know perfectly how it is growing, that is science. We know that, how it is growing. ''Bījaṁ māṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ'' ([[BG 7.10 (1972)|BG 7.10]]). The seed of this rose tree is Kṛṣṇa. All kinds of seeds are Kṛṣṇa.

Therefore, from one seed you'll find a tree is growing from which a perfect rose of yellow color is coming. Another tree, a perfect rose of red color is coming or varieties of color is coming. The seed is different. Otherwise the earth is the one, water is the one, but because the seed is different, therefore different plants are coming and different results are coming. But the seeds are Kṛṣṇa. This is our observation. You cannot create the seed. You cannot create the seed. You cannot create in your laboratory a seed of . . . what is that tree?

'''Śyāmasundara:''' Banyan? Banyan tree?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Banyan tree. A small seed, very small. It contains the potency of a big banyan tree. You cannot create such seed. You create something, just like you are creating vitamin tablets. You are proposing that "No more eating required. You simply take some vitamin tablet." Is it not? Similarly, you create some tablet and sow it in the earth and big banyan tree comes. Then I will accept you. (laughter)

'''Martin:''' You, you say that . . . (break) . . . who created this knowledge that this flower and the banyan tree is Kṛṣṇa. What place in the divine scheme do such great names as Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad have?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. Buddha, we accept him as incarnation, as expansion of Kṛṣṇa. He's Kṛṣṇa working as Buddha, Lord Buddha. ''Keśava dhṛta buddha śarīra'' (Daśāvatāra-stotra 9). He has accepted body of Buddha. That is our conception of Lord Buddha.

'''Martin:''' And Jesus Christ and Muhammad?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Everyone.

'''Martin:''' They were all the reincarnation of Kṛṣṇa?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.

'''Martin:''' I see.

'''Prabhupāda:''' ''Yad yad vibhūti'' . . . any, anyone who is showing some extraordinary power, he is supposed to be incarnation of Kṛṣṇa's energy. ''Yad yad vibhūtimat sattvaṁ mama tejo 'ṁśa-sambhavam'' ([[BG 10.41 (1972)|BG 10.41]]). The brilliant energy. He represents the brilliant energy of Kṛṣṇa. And the energy is not different from the energetic.

(aside) Hmm. What is that?

'''Śyāmasundara:''' I just said that this is a very good sound track of your speaking—this chanting and rainfall (there is a ''kīrtana'' in the background).

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.

'''Martin:''' Can a true devotee come face to face with God through the teachings of Buddha, the teachings of Christ?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. Teachings of Christ, teachings of Buddha, they were meant for a particular type of men. Generally it is meant for everyone, but especially for a particular type of men. Just like Lord Buddha, he preached ''ahiṁsā''. They were a particular type of men. Lord Jesus Christ also preached a particular type of men. "Thou shall not kill," that means they were killing. Is it not? If I say: "Thou shall not steal," that means you are thief, you are stealing.

So a kind of preaching amongst the thieves and a kind of teaching among the philosophers must be different. That is the difference. Lord Buddha is Kṛṣṇa, Lord Jesus Christ was Kṛṣṇa incarnation, but they were preaching to a different type of people. Therefore you'll find difference of Lord Jesus Christ teaching, Buddha's teaching, Kṛṣṇa's teaching. Kṛṣṇa's teaching also there, which is already Buddha's teaching. But more than that, because the persons amongst whom He was teaching, they were far, far elevated than the thieves and the rogues. That is the difference.

Just like I am pushing on this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, I am doing so many things which my . . . sometimes my Godbrothers, out of envious, criticize. But I know what is the circumstances how to do it. They do not know it. I know my business. So that is their fault. Their own ''buddhi'' business, they'll simply criticize, "How he is acting." Find out some fault. Just like Lord Buddha was criticized by the Vedic ''brahmins'', "Oh, you are stopping animal sacrifice?

It is already in the ''Vedas''. Because it is sacrifice, the animal is also sacrificed, so how you can stop animal sacrifice?" But Lord Buddha, ''nindasi yajña-vidher ahaha śruti-jātam'' (Daśāvatāra-stotra 9). ''Śruti-jātam''. In the ''Vedas'' there is recommendation for animal sacrifice, but he began to deride. So his business was to deride the Vedic principles, that "I don't care for these ''Vedas''." Therefore Buddha religion was not accepted in India.

He criticized. He criticized the Vedic principles. In the Vedic principles there is recommendation for animal sacrifice, and he criticized, "This is not good. Don't do this." Therefore it is criticism. Vedic injunction should be accepted as it is. You cannot criticize. Then there is no Vedic authority. So therefore he defied Vedic authorities. As such he was not accepted, strictly followers of the ''Vedas''. But he has got a different purpose.

The ordinary man cannot understand. But one who is devotee, he knows that why he has done this. Therefore they offer their obeisances, ''keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare''. A devotee does not accept the philosophy of Buddha but accepts him as incarnation of Lord Kṛṣṇa and offers obeisances. This is our position. We offer obeisances to Lord Buddha as incarnation of Kṛṣṇa, ''keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare''. This is our study of knowledge. (pause)

'''Śyāmasundara:''' What class of men did Lord Caitanya teach among?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Those who accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

'''Śyāmasundara:''' Preached among the devotees.

'''Prabhupāda:''' His preaching begins from surrendering to Kṛṣṇa. ''Yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa'' ([[CC Madhya 7.128|CC Madhya 7.128]]). ''Kṛṣṇa upadeśa'' is that Kṛṣṇa is asking everyone to surrender unto Him. So one who has surrendered unto Kṛṣṇa, he can understand Lord Caitanya's teaching. ''Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya kṛṣṇa-dāsa'' ([[CC Madhya 20.108-109|CC Madhya 20.108]]). He begins His teachings from the point when one accepts that "I am the eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa."

'''Śyāmasundara:''' This chanting process is directed to everyone, or just those who . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, everyone. By chanting he'll come to this point. When his heart will be cleansed, then he will come to this point to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. We initiate a person, not that he is already on that standard, but we are educated him . . . educating him by the process to come to that standard.

'''Devotee:''' Beginning when one takes ''sannyāsa''?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Huh?

'''Devotee:''' Beginning when one takes ''sannyāsa'' initiation? It doesn't necessarily mean he's a controller of senses, is that right? Gradually he may rise up to the standard

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. No. A ''sannyāsī'' is already qualified. Then we are . . . (indistinct) . . . ''sannyāsa''. The first beginning is chanting. If he follows the regulative principles and chants sixteen rounds, that is his qualification. And by that process, he'll come to the point of full surrender. And then we give him the second initiation. And when he's actually engaged in the service of the Lord heart and soul, then we give him ''sannyāsa''.

'''Śyāmasundara:''' Do you have any more questions?

'''Martin:''' No, no. You've more than filled my cup.

'''Prabhupāda:''' What is that?

'''Martin:''' You have filled my cup. More than filled.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Thank you very much. (break)

'''Śyāmasundara:''' I have one question I wanted to ask you. In Hawaii you said that the ocean was necessary in order to make the rain fall on the land, as a reservoir for fresh water, and that the salt was there to preserve the water from becoming bad.

'''Prabhupāda:''' So?

'''Śyāmasundara:''' So such huge body of water is required?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Huh?

'''Śyāmasundara:''' The oceans cover how much of the earth?

'''Martin:''' Three-fifths.

'''Śyāmasundara:''' Three-fifths of the earth's surface is ocean. So that much is required to water two-fifths land?

'''Prabhupāda:''' No. The ocean is gradually . . . the water is required. Water is required. In our India, if somebody spends extravagantly, so it is compared with water: "Oh, you are spending like water." (break) (end)