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[[Category:1975 - Morning Walks]]
[[Category:1975 - Lectures and Conversations]]
[[Category:1975 - Lectures, Conversations and Letters]]
[[Category:1975-06 - Lectures, Conversations and Letters]]
[[Category:Morning Walks - USA]]
[[Category:Morning Walks - USA, Hawaii]]
[[Category:Lectures, Conversations and Letters - USA]]
[[Category:Lectures, Conversations and Letters - USA, Hawaii]]
[[Category:1975 - New Audio - Released in May 2014]]
[[Category:Audio Files 30.01 to 45.00 Minutes]]
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<div class="code">750610MW-HONOLULU - June 10, 1975 - 42:41 Minutes</div>


<mp3player>https://s3.amazonaws.com/vanipedia/full/1975/750610MW-HONOLULU.mp3</mp3player>


'''Śrutakīrti:''' . . . talking in the car on the way over, the other day you said that Govinda dāsī, she had asked you if in general that we would have to take birth in India before going back home, and you said yes. So we were wondering (laughter) how that's possible that we have to take birth in India. Because we see that they're not very strict Vaiṣṇavas there. So what is it . . .?

'''Prabhupāda:''' The land is there.

'''Śrutakīrti:''' Yes.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Land is . . . just like this land, Vaiṣṇava is there. This land is not meant for spiritual culture, but still the Vaiṣṇavas are there. Similarly, in India . . . no, there are many Vaiṣṇavas there. The mass of people, they are all Vaiṣṇava.

'''Paramahaṁsa:''' So by joining this movement we come to the platform where we can take birth in India in a nice ''brāhmaṇa'' family? (laughter)

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, you can go directly also, if you want to finish your business. ''Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe'' ([[BG 6.41 (1972)|BG 6.41]]). This is a consideration, who, one who fails in executing. But if you become successful, then you go directly where Kṛṣṇa is there. Kṛṣṇa is there in some universe. So those who are completely liberated, they go to that universe. Just like when Kṛṣṇa comes here, in each and every universe there is a Vṛndāvana. So in that Vṛndāvana one takes birth. Then goes to original Vṛndāvana. (break)

'''Paramahaṁsa:''' Those who are not able to maintain the Kṛṣṇa consciousness principle, then they may have to go to India next lifetime.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. ''Śrīmatam, śrīmatāṁ śucīnāṁ''.

'''Paramahaṁsa:''' Yes.

'''Prabhupāda:''' So ''śrīmatāṁ'', you can get here. ''Śrīmatam'' means rich—rich family. Here you get many families, Ford family . . . but ''śrīmatāṁ'' and ''śucīnāṁ''. So if you are creating so many ''brāhmaṇas'', so if this cult is permanent, then there will be many ''brāhmaṇa'' family here also. (break)

'''Śrutakīrti:''' . . . someone had asked me yesterday. You say that the moon is self-luminous. So then . . . but during the course of the month there are times when only part of the moon is showing. The moon is not always full.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Maybe some planet between. Maybe due to sun. So moon is above the sun. Above the sun.

'''Śrutakīrti:''' Yes. (break)

'''Bali-mardana:''' Yeah, albatross, sea birds.

'''Siddha-svarūpa:''' They call them rain birds.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Huh?

'''Siddha-svarūpa:''' Rain birds.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Oh.

'''Siddha-svarūpa:''' They like to stay near the clouds.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Above the clouds?

'''Siddha-svarūpa:''' Just below the clouds usually.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Oh. (break) . . . Siddhaloka the residents, men, they also can fly. Siddhaloka. They can go from one planet to another by flying. (break) . . . eating, they come down, these birds?

'''Siddha-svarūpa:''' Do they come down to eat?

'''Prabhupāda:''' For eating?

'''Siddha-svarūpa:''' I've never seen them on the ground. I think they might be eating something in the rain. There's actually particles in the rain. Isn't there?

'''Prabhupāda:''' There is a bird, ''cātaka''. They drink rain water.

'''Siddha-svarūpa:''' Yes.

'''Prabhupāda:''' The example is given, these ''cātaka'' birds, they want water from the cloud, and they will never come down to take water, take water down. Similarly, devotees will simply depend on Kṛṣṇa. They'll not accept anything from this material world. (break) Example is given that sometimes the cloud, instead of giving water, gives thunderbolt. Still, they will not take water from down. That is a ''cātaka''. Although it is . . . sometimes they are punished—instead of water, they are given thunderbolt—but still, they will not take any . . .

'''Harikeśa:''' Śrīla Prabhupāda, I was wondering if it was more important to understand the universal make up or simply to accept what ''Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam'' says.

'''Prabhupāda:''' That means you don't accept ''Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam''?

'''Harikeśa:''' No. But some of the things in ''Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam'' are difficult to understand.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Rascal, fool. Therefore it is difficult for you.

'''Harikeśa:''' Yes.

'''Prabhupāda:''' You should not . . . you understand or not understand, you have to accept it.

'''Harikeśa:''' That is why we are asking so many questions about the moon and the planets.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. So where is the doubt? It is a fact that they did not go to the moon. That's a fact.

'''Harikeśa:''' I'm just trying to understand for preaching purposes.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Why do you try to understand?

'''Harikeśa:''' Because I have a hard time explaining about the make up of the universe as far as . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' That make up is all right, what they say?

'''Harikeśa:''' What they say?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.

'''Harikeśa:''' No.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Then don't understand them also, you don't understand here also, then what you will do?

'''Siddha-svarūpa:''' What it is is that we're automatically taking as authoritative what the scientists say, but we don't think is authoritative what Śrīla Prabhupāda and the ''Bhāgavata'' is saying.

'''Harikeśa:''' Well, the difficulty I was having about this mountain, Sumeru. It sounds . . . it's very difficult to explain that to someone.

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, no, that is difficult, but everything is difficult for you. Because you want to see. You have not seen their arrangement; neither you have seen our arrangement. So . . . but your proposition is you don't believe what you don't see. You have not seen neither of them, so you have to remain silent.

'''Harikeśa:''' So the best position is just remain silent until realization comes?

'''Prabhupāda:''' No. You should . . . Śukadeva Gosvāmī says; you have to believe that. It is an idea. If you believe or not believe, it doesn't matter. But you can get an idea about the planetary situation. That's all. Neither you can go there; neither you can see it. An idea is given, that is all. But there is no argument.

'''Harikeśa:''' No.

'''Prabhupāda:''' No.

'''Siddha-svarūpa:''' Did the people who said they went to the moon, did they go to another planet?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. Or they did not go anywhere. They were in the desert . . . what is that?

'''Devotees:''' Arizona.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Arizona. That's all. That is possible.

'''Siddha-svarūpa:''' Yes, it's possible. I wouldn't put anything beyond them.

'''Prabhupāda:''' They are all doing this nonsense here on this planet and showing and advertising, that's all.

'''Siddha-svarūpa:''' Yes, they made big propaganda that they would get there, and then they had to succeed. And then they showed that they succeeded, they stopped the program.

'''Prabhupāda:''' That one film? What is that?

'''Śrutakīrti:''' Oh, King Kong. (laughter)

'''Prabhupāda:''' King Kong. It was made in laboratory.

'''Bali-mardana:''' Yes.

'''Harikeśa:''' Also 2001 was very expertly made like that. There is one movie, 2001, which looked even better than the moon shots.

'''Devotee:''' Someone was arguing with me that if, like Russia and America both are enemies, if Russia achieves something great like going to the moon, America will immediately try to expose it. But on the contrary, America accepted all those things. And because . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' Then there is also . . . both of them are thieves. They have made agreement, "Don't expose me, I'll not expose you."

'''Devotee:''' So that is their agree . . . but they are enemies . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, no, enemies, they are not enemies. They are simply rogues and thieves, that's all.

'''Paramahaṁsa:''' Because if they tried to expose Russia, they would also expose themselves.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.

'''Siddha-svarūpa:''' It's like these so many ''guru''s. They're not actually enemies. They're actually individually working to exploit the people. And if they get in each other's way, if one person tries to take the other person's followers, then there's some clash or something. But as long they can leave each other alone and don't fight and work independently, exploiting, then they live peacefully.

'''Bali-mardana:''' Honor among thieves.

'''Prabhupāda:''' "Thief, thief, cousin brother." ''Chora chora, pasura bhai''. So far our position is that we are not concerned with anything with this universe. We are concerned with Kṛṣṇa-loka. So whatever one may say, one other may say, we don't care for that. We are not going to the moon planet, Jupiter planet.

'''Siddha-svarūpa:''' There's a danger that we become overly concerned with debating on them.

'''Harikeśa:''' So our preaching platform should be is that "You don't know." We can say, "You don't know" or "We don't know. Why shouldn't one accept what we say over what you say?" We should just prove that we . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, accept or not accept, the whatever is description there in ''Bhāgavatam'', we are accepted.

'''Harikeśa:''' So we should not try to meet these scientists on any scientific platform? Rather, on . . .

'''Siddha-svarūpa:''' Why not on the platform of not being the body? Why should you . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.

'''Siddha-svarūpa:''' Why not speak on what we're trying to speak about, instead of overly indulge in that which is beyond debate actually?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.

'''Siddha-svarūpa:''' Ask them, "Are you the body?" If they say, "Yes," and then ask them to show how.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Just like here in America I have come to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I am not interested for sight-seeing. That is not my business. Whatever you say, "It is here like this," "All right." That's all. Finished. Why should we try to confirm it? Whatever you say, that's all right. Now, we are seeing the other party; if somebody there, "It is like this," that's all right. I'm not going to test it. So what is the use of arguing? I have no interest.

'''Siddha-svarūpa:''' The materialists, they want to argue on the platform of material arrangements, and there's . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' That is useless.

'''Siddha-svarūpa:''' Yes.

'''Prabhupāda:''' What he will gain by such argument? You are not going there, neither you are interested for going to the moon planet. For knowledge' sake it is stated in the ''Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam'', and everyone is . . . just like when we speak of the hell, everyone is little anxious, "Where are the hell?" So that is described. In the down this universe there are ''lokas''.

'''Harikeśa:''' So in other words, it would make no . . . it would be not a very good program to get some understanding from Vedic astronomy, lets, say, some expert Vedic astronomers.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.

'''Harikeśa:''' It would not be a good program . . .?

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, what benefit you will derive there? Your problem is that if at the time of death you can remember Kṛṣṇa, then it is success. We are not going to any other planet. ''Yānti deva-vratā devān'' ([[BG 9.25 (1972)|BG 9.25]]), let them go. We are not interested.

'''Siddha-svarūpa:''' There's only a certain amount of time and a certain amount of . . . that we can talk about to people. And if we're talking about so many material arrangements, then it means that we can't be talking about that which is actually important. So we have to make a choice, whether we're going to get straight to the point or beat around the bush. (break)

'''Prabhupāda:''' . . . no interest in a particular subject, why should you bother your head about it?

'''Harikeśa:''' I become very fascinated when I read these descriptions in ''Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam'' about the creation and the universal . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, yes. That's gist idea of the universal position. That is sufficient.

'''Harikeśa:''' So in other words, Śukadeva Gosvāmī is always bringing Mahārāja Parīkṣit to the platform of "Why bother with all of this? Simply perform devotional service"?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Huh? No, no. He's giving full knowledge of the universal affairs. He also says at the end that "I have described whatever I have heard." That's all.

'''Harikeśa:''' So we should simply describe it without being concerned that the scientific mind may make sense out of it or not?

'''Prabhupāda:''' What is this nonsense scientific? That is . . . we reject immediately. What is scientific? A teeny brain, what is their science? ''Phene bare dhake nate ute''. A snake-catcher . . . there is a kind of snake which has no poison. So he cannot catch even that non-poisonous snake, and he's trying to catch one cobra. So these scientists, what is their value? What they have done anything contribution to the world for the benefit of the human society? They could not give any relief from the disease, relief from old age, relief from death or birth. These are the real problems. So what is their contribution? They have given some horseless carriage. Again there is problem of power. So what is actually benefit they have done, that this is the benefit from the scientist? Anything they have done, there is counter-disadvantage. This is simply waste of time. Our . . . we consider our human life is very valuable, and before the next death we should prepare ourself go back to home, back to Godhead. This is our philosophy. We cannot waste a minute time before the next death comes. That is our philosophy. So why should we waste our time, "Where is the moon? Where is sun?" Just have it gist idea, that's all. (break) . . . no profit. Suppose the position of the moon is correct according to ''Bhāgavata'' or according to the scientist, what benefit we shall get out of it? Whichever may be correct or wrong.

'''Siddha-svarūpa:''' Yes, right.

'''Prabhupāda:''' We are not getting any profit out of it. So why should we bother about it? ''Adhara vapare jaj akalara''. We are dealing in ginger. Then what is the use of asking, "What is the hire," I mean to say, "freight for a big ship?" If you are dealing with ginger, ginger is not sold by tons. When you go to purchase ginger, you take one or two pieces. So those who are dealing in ginger, what is the use of asking what is the fare of a freight ship? We are not going to . . .

'''Siddha-svarūpa:''' (laughs) It doesn't have anything to do . . . (break)

'''Prabhupāda:''' . . . be done by Darwin, that he will live for fifty years; he is giving account millions of years: "Some millions of years after, this evolution takes place like this." Huh? Will he live for millions of years? Why he's talking of millions of years? This is a waste of time. He will live for fifty years or, say, utmost, hundred years, and he's talking of millions of years.

'''Śrutakīrti:''' Just like that man who wrote the letter yesterday. He's prepared to spend the rest of his life understanding the transfer, the transmigration of the soul instead of just accepting it from the ''Gītā''. He's going to spend his whole life.

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, no. His non-acceptance means he's a rascal. He's a rascal. He may waste his time in that way. What can be done? His non-acceptance means he's a rascal. It's evident. Anyone knows that "After this, I will get another body." You are all young men. You know that you will get after some years a body like me. So what is the difficulty to understand that we are changing body?

'''Paramahaṁsa:''' So actually it's useless to try to give any more proof other than that.

'''Prabhupāda:''' That is sufficient for an intelligent man. That is sufficient.

'''Paramahaṁsa:''' So if a scientist or someone who has some degree in science comes to our movement, should we encourage him to try to prove through science the Kṛṣṇa conscious principle of transmigration and eternal quality of the soul?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Not necessary. Not necessary.

'''Paramahaṁsa:''' Better if he just . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' It is not that if we prove scientifically there is soul, if there is scientific proof, not that all the people of the world will become Kṛṣṇa conscious, even if you do that. So it is useless. You simply understand what is stated by Kṛṣṇa.

'''Harikeśa:''' Can a material calculation prove a spiritual fact?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Huh?

'''Harikeśa:''' Can a material calculation prove . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' No. Materialists cannot understand spiritual subject matter. It is not for them.

'''Harikeśa:''' So there is a project in Los Angeles where some psychologists are examining all the devotees.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Huh?

'''Harikeśa:''' Some psychologists are there. They are doing a laboratory test on all the devotees.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, he may study in his own way, but he will not profit.

'''Harikeśa:''' He will not profit. So this, the findings, even if they are published, will not profit?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Huh?

'''Harikeśa:''' The findings? They are going to . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' So what is their findings? The devotees are working on the soul platform, but he does not know what is soul.

'''Siddha-svarūpa:''' What are these experiments?

'''Harikeśa:''' They're really far out. Actually, they're crazy . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' The psychology is on the mental platform.

'''Harikeśa:''' Yes.

'''Prabhupāda:''' So what he will understand about spiritual platform?

'''Harikeśa:''' Actually they can't. They put these little things around fingers with wires, and heads, and they find that the readings are all over the place . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' And our devotees also agreed to sit down like that?

'''Harikeśa:''' Yes. I thought it was ridiculous.

'''Śrutakīrti:''' They're probably getting some money for doing it.

'''Harikeśa:''' Every week they go, and every week another man comes, and they give all of these tests, these psychological tests. We would say yes or no to different questions, material questions.

'''Prabhupāda:''' So why do they agree to?

'''Harikeśa:''' They're being, more or less, forced to.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Forced?

'''Harikeśa:''' Yes.

'''Śrutakīrti:''' They're probably being paid.

'''Upendra:''' This is referring to that . . . in that Transcendental Meditation they have a chart that after transcendentally meditating, they are calm. But the result is that after chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, the devotees are more calm, and they can remain calm more than this result of the Transcendental Meditation.

'''Harikeśa:''' But actually, that's not true because some . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' That Transcendental Meditation, that is a bogus humbug. So they are making experiment. So in that way it is good for us, that they're better than Transcendental Meditation.

'''Harikeśa:''' But sometimes the devotees become very excited, you see, when we chant, and the test goes up.

'''Upendra:''' No, but this is . . . Dharmādhyakṣa was . . . he did it. The same result, they have to act the same way. They have to chant their ''japa'' nicely. And then the Transcendental Meditationist will meditate his way. But the results are coming out better in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Dharmādhyakṣa, at least, and Guru dāsa said so. I'm not sure. It hasn't been working yet.

'''Prabhupāda:''' In the ''Bhagavad-gītā'' it is said that beyond the senses, the mind is there. Beyond the mind, the intelligence is there. Beyond the intelligence, the soul is there. So they are studying the mind. They are not even on the intelligence platform, and what to speak of spiritual platform? ''Mano-rathena asato dhavato'' ([[SB 5.18.12|SB 5.18.12]]). These rascals, those who are on the mental plane, they will remain materialists. That's all. They will not know, understand, anything spiritual.

'''Harikeśa:''' So even if someone were to read the results of such a test, it would not convince them.

'''Prabhupāda:''' What . . .? What you . . .?

'''Siddha-svarūpa:''' They're testing after a material thing. Try to understand it. They're testing the mental plane, and they're thinking that that's the spiritual plane.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Their position is described in the ''Bhagavad-gītā'', ''avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā''. These rascals, ''avajānanti'', I mean to say, cares a fig for Kṛṣṇa, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is also a very big man, that's all." Just the Arya-samaji says in India, that "We don't accept Him as God, but He is a very big man, a very big politician, like that." So that is described in the ''Bhagavad . . . avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam, paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto'' ([[BG 9.11 (1972)|BG 9.11]]). The ''paraṁ bhāvam'', what is the actual significance, that is, they do not know. What is the actual significance of the soul and soul platform, spiritual, that they do not know. They are studying from the mental platform. So they have to go beyond mental platform, ''avāṅ mānasa-gocara'', beyond bodily mental platform. Then they will understand.

'''Harikeśa:''' So we shouldn't bother with such tests?

'''Prabhupāda:''' No.

'''Siddha-svarūpa:''' By submitting to them we're actually . . . we're endorsing that they are dealing with the spiritual.

'''Prabhupāda:''' When they come first of all, you have to inform them that "We are working on the platform of the soul. What do you know about the soul?"

'''Harikeśa:''' This psychologist has become a devotee.

'''Prabhupāda:''' That is another thing. He might have failed in his mental working in the mental plane, then he has come. That is another thing.

'''Harikeśa:''' But still he wants to try and prove Kṛṣṇa consciousness through this psychological testing.

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, what he will prove, psychological . . .? Psychological means mental plane. How he will understand soul from the mental platform? That is not possible.

'''Bali-mardana:''' What they want to know is the effect of the . . . the effect on the mind of the soul.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Effect will be good. As soon as one is on the platform of the soul, the intelligence, mind, body, everything will be good.

'''Bali-mardana:''' That is what they are studying.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, that is another thing. Just like if you get millions of dollars, ten dollars is already there. You haven't got to endeavor for ten dollars. Similarly, one who is on the platform of soul . . . ''yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati'' (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). If you understand the platform of soul, then you understand the other platforms: intellectual platform, mental platform, bodily platform. And platform of knowledge, ''pratyakṣa, parakṣa, aparakṣa, adhokṣaja, aprākṛta''. So ''aprākṛta'' is this platform of the soul. Kṛṣṇa's activities, that is ''aprākṛta'', completely far beyond these material ideas, material platform. Material platform, ''pratyakṣa''. Just like you want to see the arrangement. That is ''pratyakṣa''. Then ''aparakṣa'', accepting the authority's version. ''Pratyakṣa, parakṣa''. Then ''aparakṣa'', then ''adhokṣaja'', beyond your mental speculation. Then ''aprākṛta'', spiritual. Spiritual platform is not understood by machine, material machine. Then what is the spiritual platform? Kṛṣṇa is understood not by machine. Kṛṣṇa says, ''bhaktyā mām abhijānāti'' ([[BG 18.55 (1972)|BG 18.55]]): "Through devotion only." So devotion is not machine. That is spiritual activity.

'''Harikeśa:''' So you cannot understand the consciousness of a devotee by testing his body.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Huh?

'''Harikeśa:''' You cannot understand the consciousness of a devotee by testing his body or his mind.

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, consciousness means . . . that is mental platform. Consciousness is also in different platform: bodily consciousness, mental consciousness, intellectual consciousness, then spiritual consciousness. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is spiritual consciousness.

'''Harikeśa:''' So there is no way they can understand. No way.

'''Prabhupāda:''' How they will understand? First of all let them explain what does he mean by soul. That they cannot explain. They take mind as the ultimate, that's all.

'''Siddha-svarūpa:''' Yes. And they see whether or not the mind is moving like this or like this or like this or like that, and then they have a gauge which says, "This is perfect." So they're seeing . . . they're judging whether or not . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' But we say, "Any position on the mental platform, it is all nonsense." ''Mano-rathena sato dhavato bahiḥ''.

'''Harikeśa:''' So the mind of a devotee is based on the activities of his spiritual practices.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Mind of a devotee is upon Kṛṣṇa. So what they will understand, that mind is in Kṛṣṇa? What they will understand?

'''Harikeśa:''' So according to different transcendental emotions, the mind will be agitated or calm or . . .?

'''Prabhupāda:''' It is not mind. It is spirit soul. You also do not understand.

'''Harikeśa:''' (laughs) That's a fact.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Spiritual platform is different. But the spiritual activities expressed through mind, through body, through intelligence. That's it.

'''Harikeśa:''' Yes. So that will bewilder them, this expression.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Huh?

'''Harikeśa:''' This expression through the . . . it will bewilder them.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. Yes.

'''Siddha-svarūpa:''' See, their . . . the materialist is seeing that everyone is agitated, so the goal in their life is cessation of that agitation. They want to merge or cease their existence. They want to go into nothingness. So . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, that is their . . .

'''Siddha-svarūpa:''' . . . this is what they're looking for. The transcendental meditator goes in so that the gauge doesn't make any motion. But a rock, if you put that same gauge on a rock, it also doesn't make motion. Does that mean the rock is spiritual or that he's more advanced than someone else?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.

'''Siddha-svarūpa:''' You see? They're saying that perfection is no motion. They're saying that perfection is inactivity. So they already have in their mind what they think is perfect, and then they're going to see if this method helps a person to achieve calmness or whatever they're calling perfection.

'''Prabhupāda:''' That is that Buddha philosophy, ''nirvāṇa. Nirvāṇa'': stop all activities. Buddha philosophy.

'''Harikeśa:''' So someone who's actually following the scientific method, when he comes up to these bewildering conclusions about a devotee, he will be forced to inquire into the spiritual consciousness? Therefore we might be able to say this is a bona fide thing.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Huh?

'''Harikeśa:''' Because they are bewildered—they will see the conclusions, they are bewildered—they will then have to inquire further, "Well, why is this? Why is this?" They will have to come to the spiritual platform to understand.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, yes.

'''Harikeśa:''' Therefore we can make them devotees through this . . .?

'''Siddha-svarūpa:''' But they're bewildered already. They don't need to look at their graphs to become bewildered. (laughs)

'''Harikeśa:''' But they don't think they're bewildered, so that's the difference.

'''Siddha-svarūpa:''' Well, when they see their graphs, they still may not think they're bewildered. They may make the conclusion . . .

'''Harikeśa:''' No, they even admit they're bewildered.

'''Prabhupāda:''' The reply was given by Socrates. He was condemned to death. So the judges inquired, "Mr. Socrates, what kind of grave you will like?" So he answered, "First of all, catch me. Then talk of grave." (laughter) So . . .

'''Paramahaṁsa:''' Śrīla Prabhupāda . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' They are not on the spiritual platform, so all their studies are useless. They are studying with a pre-concept idea.

'''Siddha-svarūpa:''' Right. So that when you don't fit into their preconceived idea . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' It is called, in logic it is called petitio principii. So it is useless.

'''Paramahaṁsa:''' In our movement, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we have that group of scientists who are preparing that book, The Origin of Life, but will they actually be able to prove anything through that book?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Huh?

'''Paramahaṁsa:''' Will they actually be able to prove anything by scientific presentation or . . .?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, that is science, if you can prove it by experiment. Otherwise, it is not science; theory.

'''Paramahaṁsa:''' But how can they prove the existence of the soul through experiment, like you were saying yesterday?

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, first of all let them prove by chemical composition they can produce life. Then we shall talk of soul. First of all let them, in the laboratory, let the chemicals be mixed up and produce a small ant. Then we shall understand.

'''Siddha-svarūpa:''' We don't need to make experiments.

'''Harikeśa:''' They can make these little amoebas, but they can't make ants.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Amoebas, that is automatically . . . by perspiration it comes out. There are four sources of life: ''udbhijja, jarāyuja, svedaja,'' and, what is other? ''Aṇḍaja. Aṇḍaja'' means life comes from the egg. That is called ''aṇḍaja''. And life comes from, under certain circumstances . . . just like trees, grass. It is called ''udbhijja''. And then ''jarāyuja'', just like we human beings or animals, they come from the embryo. And ''svedaja'', and some living entities come out from perspiration.

'''Harikeśa:''' So they were saying in this experiment they made that they completely . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' Four kinds of generating process is there. So what they have studied? That germs come out perspiration, that is already accepted in the ''Vedas''. Under certain circumstances the germs come by, what is called? Scientific name?

'''Siddha-svarūpa:''' I don't know.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Just like bugs, bedbugs. Due to your perspiration of the body, the bed being unclean, they come.

'''Harikeśa:''' So the capability was already there like seed, and you just watered it.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. Yes.

'''Harikeśa:''' So when they said they created life in this laboratory experiment, the capability . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' But that also they cannot do. That also they cannot do.

'''Harikeśa:''' But the capability was there, and they just watered it. They . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' What is the capability?

'''Harikeśa:''' There was one of these four circumstances for life in that test . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' Potency. That is potency.

'''Harikeśa:''' Yeah. And they just made the circumstance proper so that life came.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.

'''Harikeśa:''' That is their big thing on the path to becoming God.

'''Prabhupāda:''' For the time being, let them be kicked by the God's servant, that's all. Then some day they will become God. For the time being, let them be kicked. That's all.

'''Harikeśa:''' Actually the whole field of psychology is going towards ''yoga''.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yoga?

'''Harikeśa:''' Because they are trying to become calm and peaceful and control their body for long periods of time.

'''Devotee:''' This way, Śrīla Prabhupāda. The car is here.

'''Śrutakīrti:''' The car is . . .

'''Harikeśa:''' So we went to a convention two weeks ago, and they were all doing their scientific experiments, and they were trying so many different methods to enjoy sex life and be happy, and then the last day we had a big ''kīrtana'' for two and a half hours. And all of these people who were so frustrated by all of their other methods came—psychologists and professors and ''chairmens'' of department and little old ladies—and they were all jumping up and down in ecstasy for two and a half hours.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Just see.

'''Harikeśa:''' And they said, "Oh, this is the best process, because this is joyful realization." They said, "You people really have something here."

'''Prabhupāda:''' So in that way, if they understand, that is good.

'''Harikeśa:''' That seemed to be the only way they'll understand.

'''Siddha-svarūpa:''' So that's more effective than making some experiments and bringing them some graphs.

'''Harikeśa:''' Also, they loved ''prasādam''.

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, no. That they are realizing, that how these hippies, they have given up everything, and they are now enjoying ''saṅkīrtana''. That they are realizing. Because they know most of our devotees coming from the hippie community. So they are surprised, "How the hippies they have given up everything and they're enjoying ''saṅkīrtana''?" That is already their problem, another, "There must be something." Therefore these big, big professors study. (break)

'''Harikeśa:''' . . . one place in ''Caitanya-caritāmṛta'' where Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja says that "You mental speculators, put your speculation to Caitanya Mahāprabhu." He says something like that. If you were to speculate, speculate about Caitanya Mahāprabhu, the greatness of Caitanya Mahāprabhu.

'''Prabhupāda:''' I don't think there is anything.

'''Harikeśa:''' Maybe I'm misquoting.

'''Siddha-svarūpa:''' Not mental specu . . . analyze.

'''Harikeśa:''' Analyze?

'''Prabhupāda:''' ''Caitanyer dayār kathā kara vicāra'': "Just analyze the merciful contribution of Caitanya Mahāprabhu with others." That you have already experienced, that they experimented in so many ways, but as soon as they come to Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mercy, ''saṅkīrtana'', they become immediately, "Oh, this is the nicest thing." So that is ''vicāra'', judgment. ''Caitanyer dayār kathā''. There are many contribution of the world, many scientists, many physiologists, many . . . but Kavirāja Gosvāmī says, "Compare with the contribution of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Then you will be surprised. Oh!" Just like they became surprised, immediately, "Oh, this is the nicest." That is stated by Kavirāja Gosvāmī, that "The merciful contribution given by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, compare with any other contribution of the world—scientist, physiologist and this and that—you will see this is the best." ''Caitanyer dayār kathā karaha vicāra.'' (Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja Gosvāmī) (break) (end)