View source for 760727 - Interview - London

[[Category:1976 - Conversations]]
[[Category:1976 - Lectures and Conversations]]
[[Category:1976 - Lectures, Conversations and Letters]]
[[Category:1976-07 - Lectures, Conversations and Letters]]
[[Category:Conversations - Europe]]
[[Category:Conversations - Europe, England - London]]
[[Category:Lectures, Conversations and Letters - Europe]]
[[Category:Lectures, Conversations and Letters - Europe, England - London]]
[[Category:Conversations with Media]]
[[Category:1976 - New Audio - Released in November 2013]]
[[Category:Audio Files 60.01 to 90.00 Minutes]]
<div style="float:left">[[File:Go-previous.png|link=Category:Conversations - by Date]]'''[[:Category:Conversations - by Date|Conversations by Date]], [[:Category:1976 - Conversations|1976]]'''</div>
{{RandomImage}}


<!-- Nectar Drop Code Start -->
<div class="center">
[[Vanipedia:760427b - Lecture - Srila Prabhupada Speaks a Nectar Drop in Auckland|''' <span style="display: flex; align-items: center; justify-content: center"><b class="fa fa-solid fa-volume-up" style="font-size: 330%">&nbsp;</b><big>Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this lecture'''</big></span>]]</div>
<!-- Nectar Drop Link end -->


<div class="code">760727IV-LONDON - July 27, 1976 - 82:16 Minutes</div>


<mp3player>https://s3.amazonaws.com/vanipedia/full/1976/760727IV-LONDON_mono.mp3</mp3player>


(Radio interview)

'''Mukunda:''' Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is Mr. Robinson, Mike Robinson, from London Broadcasting Company. It's a very prominent news program in London, and he wanted to interview you, ask some questions.

'''Mike Robinson:''' Good evening. Pleased to meet you. If I could just spend one or two minutes setting up the microphone.. 

'''Prabhupāda:''' Sit down, take that.

'''Mike Robinson:''' That'll be lovely. 

Shall I explain the program? We do a religious program for two and a half hours on a Sunday which covers all different religions, and what we'd like is, people in London have seen, you know, many members of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement on Oxford Street. And if you would explain more about the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, how it was formed, what you believe, this sort of idea, so that people would have a better understanding of the movement. And I'll just set up a tape recorder first.

'''Mukunda:''' This is your biography, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, I have seen it. Encyclopedia.

'''Mike Robinson:''' Could we just talk for a minute or two so that we could get all this set up? If you'd like, just to tell me, you're going to India tomorrow. Is that correct?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, I am leaving tomorrow.

'''Mike Robinson:''' And when did you come into England?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Huh?

'''Hari-śauri:''' About seven days ago.

'''Mike Robinson:''' Oh, I see. It's just that I'm setting a level, that's all. Your Grace, could I ask you, first, how you pronounce your name?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Bhaktivedanta Swami.

'''Mike Robinson:''' Which is very, very difficult isn't it. Now I understand you're the founder of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Can you tell me how it came to be founded?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Give him the name.

'''Mike Robinson:''' That's the name, is it?

'''Jayatīrtha:''' Yes.

'''Mike Robinson:''' I see. Thank you. And what's he pointing, that I should . . .?

'''Mukunda:''' He wanted you to see how it's pronounced.

'''Jayatīrtha:''' Spelled.

'''Mike Robinson:''' Oh, thank you very much. Can you tell me how the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement came to be founded?

'''Prabhupāda:''' (to devotee) You can tell these things. These ordinary things you can say.

'''Jayatīrtha:''' Hmm. It's being recorded now. It's being recorded directly for the radio program now. Mukunda might . . . (indistinct) . . . these things.

'''Mukunda:''' Śrīla Prabhupāda was a student of a great spiritual teacher in India, Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī.

'''Mike Robinson:''' There's no problems with me asking him questions, is there?

'''Mukunda:''' Well, these are, just these preliminary questions. He prefers to discuss mostly the philosophical side. This is like background.

'''Mike Robinson:''' So perhaps if I could interview with you as well.

'''Jayatīrtha:''' That would be good.

'''Mukunda:''' You want to do it now or later?

'''Mike Robinson:''' It would perhaps be easier if I could do that one first, and then . . . then you could answer the ones that you feel . . . umm. We're going to have problems with microphones, aren't we? Just one minute. So which questions would he be happier answering? Sort of what you believe, that sort of . . .?

'''Jayatīrtha:''' Yes.

'''Mike Robinson:''' And then develop from that. Okay, fine. I'm sorry about that. If I ask you a few questions about what you believe and that sort of, along those lines, and then get some of the background material from some of your other members of the movement. Can you tell me what you believe, what is the philosophy of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, it is not a question of belief—it is a science, a spiritual movement. Just like a man is living and he's dead, what is the difference? The difference is that the spirit soul or the living force is out of the body. Therefore he's called dead body. So there are two things, anyone can appreciate. One, this body, and other, the living force of the body. So we are speaking of the living force of the body. That is the difference between material and spiritual. As such, in the beginning, it is very difficult for ordinary man to understand what is our movement, but our movement begins when one understands that he is soul or something other than this body. Then this movement begins.

'''Mike Robinson:''' And when we understand that?

'''Prabhupāda:''' You can understand at any moment, but it requires little brain. Just like a child is growing or changing the body. A child is becoming a boy and the boy is becoming a young man. The body is changing, but the child cannot understand that his body's changing. Actually, the body is changing. So the young man's body is also changing in the old man's body. Therefore the conclusion is that the body is changing, and the occupier of the body, it is the same. So on this logic, the occupier being the same and the bodies changing, it is to be concluded that when this body is changed, we get another body. This is called transmigration of the soul.

'''Mike Robinson:''' So when people die, it is just the physical body that dies.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. That is explained very elaborately just in the ''Bhagavad-gītā'': ''na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācin na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre'' ([[BG 2.20 (1972)|BG 2.20]]).

'''Mike Robinson:''' Are you there referring to references of the scriptures?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, so many references. It is a series of education. (aside) What is that? Read it.

'''Harikeśa:'''

:''na jāyate mriyate vā kadācin''
:''nāyaṁ bhūtva bhavitā vā na bhūyaḥ''
:''ajo nityaḥ śāśvato 'yam purāṇo''
:''na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre''
:([[BG 2.20 (1972)|BG 2.20]])

"For the soul there is never birth nor death. Nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing, undying and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain."

'''Mike Robinson:''' Thank you very much for reading that. So can you explain to me just a bit more? If the soul is undying, does everybody's soul go to be with God when they die? Do you have a belief in a heaven or a hell, or . . .?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Not necessarily. If he's qualified, if he qualifies himself in this life to go back home, back to Godhead, then he can go. If he does not qualify himself, he gets another material body, and there are 8,400,000 different forms of body. And according to his desire and ''karma'', activities, the nature, laws of nature, gives him a body. Just like a man infects some disease and he develops that disease. Is it difficult to understand?

'''Mike Robinson:''' It's very difficult to understand all of it. Perhaps if we can back . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' Now suppose somebody has infected some smallpox disease. So after seven days it develops. What is that called, that period?

'''Mike Robinson:''' Incubation? Is that the word?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Ah, incubation, no, another technical, yes, if after some time, the disease comes. There is a technical name. Anyway, so you cannot avoid it. If you have infected some disease it will develop, by nature's law. It is not possible to avoid it. Similarly, during our this life, we are in association with different modes of material nature, and that will decide what kind of body we are going to get next life. That is under strictly under the laws of nature. Everything is under the laws of nature. You have no control over it, you are completely dependent. But people, on account of dull brain, they think that they are free. They are not free. They are imagining they are free. They're completely under the laws of nature. So this next birth will be decided according to my activities this life, sinful or pious, like that.

'''Mike Robinson:''' Your Grace, if we perhaps could go back over that just for a minute—you said nobody is free.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.

'''Mike Robinson:''' But are you saying that if we live a good life we in some way determine our future as well?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.

'''Mike Robinson:''' So we are free to choose insofar as what we believe is important. I mean religion is important, because if we believe in God and live a good life . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' There is no question of "believe." Don't bring this question, "believe." It is law. Just like there is government, you believe or not believe, who cares for you? That is government. Similarly, you believe or not believe, there is God. If you don't believe in God and do independently whatever you like, then you'll be punishable.

'''Mike Robinson:''' I see. Does it matter what religion you believe? Does it matter which religion you believe? Would it matter if one was a devotee of Hare Kṛṣṇa . . .?

'''Prabhupāda:''' It is not the question of which religion, it is a question of science, that what is your position. You are a spiritual being, you are under the laws of nature. So you may believe . . . just like you may believe in Christian religion, I may believe in Hindu religion, but it does not mean that a Christian child is not going to become a boy. We are talking of the science, that the child becomes a boy. This is natural law. It is not that because you are Christian you are becoming a boy, or because I am Hindu I am becoming. Everyone becomes a boy. So similarly, the laws of nature is applicable to everyone. You believe this religion or that religion, it doesn't matter.

'''Mike Robinson:''' So you're saying there's only one God.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.

'''Mike Robinson:''' Provided you believe in that one God.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. One God, one God's law, nature's law, and we are all under that nature's law, under the control of the Supreme. So if we think that we are free, we can do independently, that is our foolishness.

'''Mike Robinson:''' I see. Can you explain to me then what difference it makes being a member of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Hare Kṛṣṇa movement means one who is serious to understand this science, he's member of Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. There's no question of he belongs to some group, he belongs to some . . . anyone, student. Just like in a college, students can be admitted. He may be a Christian, he may be a Hindu, he may be Muhammadan, it doesn't matter. It is a science to understand.

'''Mike Robinson:''' And what difference would it make to him, being taught what the Hare Kṛṣṇa people . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' This is the beginning of education, that you are a spirit soul. Because you are spirit soul you are changing body. This is the understanding, beginning A-B-C-D. So when the body is finished, annihilated, you are not finished—you get another body. Just like you have got this coat and shirt. If you change tomorrow, you come to me in another shirt, another coat, that means you are not finished. This science has to be understood. Then one can make progress about the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement.

'''Mike Robinson:''' I'm beginning to understand. What I'm finding difficult is, for instance, we see on Oxford Street a lot of people who are handing out Hare Kṛṣṇa literature. Now . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, this is the literature, how to convince them about the spiritual life.

'''Mike Robinson:''' And you're really not concerned whether or not they join the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement?

'''Prabhupāda:''' It doesn't matter. One must be . . . our mission is to educate. People are in ignorance. They are living in fool's paradise, that he is his body. ''Bās''. When the body's finished, everything is finished. That is foolishness.

'''Mike Robinson:''' And you're basically just concerned to tell them that there's a spiritual dimension to life. And if they then were to find that spiritual dimension in something like the Anglican Church, that would not worry you.

'''Prabhupāda:''' I do not know what is Anglican Church . . .

'''Mike Robinson:''' Sorry, the English Church.

'''Prabhupāda:''' . . . but we are concerned with the educational propaganda that, "You are not this body. Body is your covering, shirt and coat. Within the body you are living, and as you are spirit soul, you have got so many things to know."

'''Mike Robinson:''' Sorry, could I just change the tape? Very sorry. Thanks. Perhaps if we can pick up where we were, if you could just carry on. Perhaps if I can carry on from where I was, that what I'm trying to understand is the difference it makes, a person being a member . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' You try to understand this, that as you have got experience of change of body . . . have you got or not?

'''Mike Robinson:''' Yes, I've got the difference there.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Similarly, the so-called death is also a change of body. This has to be understood first.

'''Mike Robinson:''' Yes, I think I've got that far. Now if we could go on from there. And then we said . . . you said that it therefore made a difference in the life after death, how you lived, that there were natural laws that determined that.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. Yes. The process is that the spirit soul is invisible in our material eyes, very small. So after the destruction of this gross body, there is another body, subtle body—mind, intelligence and ego. So at the time of death, when finishing this body, mind works. So, according to that process, the mind carries the small spirit soul to another body, just like the air carries the flavor. Nobody can see wherefrom this rose flavor is coming, but it is being carried by the air, very subtle. You cannot see, but it is being done. Similarly, the soul is very subtle. It is being carried by the mind. According to the mind, he enters into the womb of another mother through the semina of the father, and then he develops a particular type of body given by the mother. It may be human being, it may be cat, dog or anything.

'''Mike Robinson:''' So we will come back in another body.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. Then, that's when the body is developed, he comes out and his work begins.

'''Mike Robinson:''' Are you saying that we were perhaps something else before we were born, as well? 

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.

'''Mike Robinson:''' And we keep coming back in something else next time?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Oh, yes.

'''Mike Robinson:''' And how long does this go on?

'''Prabhupāda:''' This is going on, this is going on, because you are eternal. According to your work, you are simply changing body. Therefore you should be educated how to stop this business, how to remain in our original, spiritual body. And that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

'''Mike Robinson:''' Oh, I see. So if I gain Kṛṣṇa consciousness, I wouldn't have to have the threat of coming back as a dog or something like that.

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, no.

'''Mike Robinson:''' Can you tell . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' Read that, ''tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya'' ([[BG 4.9 (1972)|BG 4.9]]).

'''Harikeśa:'''

:''janma karma ca me divyam''
:''evam yo vetti tattvataḥ''
:''tyaktva dehaṁ punar janma''
:''naiti mām eti so 'rjuna''
:([[BG 4.9 (1972)|BG 4.9]])

"One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna."

'''Prabhupāda:''' God said like that, that "Anyone who understands Me . . ." Because one cannot understand God with material speculation, that is not possible. When he comes onto the spiritual platform, then he gets the required brain to understand what is God. And if he understands God, what He is, then he does not get any more this material body, he goes back to home.

'''Mike Robinson:''' And then he is with God forever.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Then he lives eternally, he lives eternally, no more change of body.

'''Mike Robinson:''' I see. Now, we've had two readings from your scriptures. Where did these scriptures comes from? Can you explain that briefly?

'''Prabhupāda:''' It is coming from Vedic literature, which is eternal. That is also eternal. But when there is creation, this creation, material creation, anything, material creation . . . just like this microphone is a material creation. So how to deal with it, there is some literature. Is it not?

'''Mike Robinson:''' Sorry. How to deal with the microphone?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. There is some literature.

'''Hari-śauri:''' There's some literature explaining.

'''Mike Robinson:''' Yes, that's right. Yes, there is. Okay.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. So that literature comes along with the creation of the microphone. 

'''Mike Robinson:''' That's right, yes.

'''Prabhupāda:''' So similarly, the Vedic literatures comes immediately with the creation.

'''Mike Robinson:''' I see. So these scriptures have been in existence since we have, is what you're saying. What about other scriptures, other religions have got their scriptures? Do you believe . . . do you accept them?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Any scriptures, any . . . just like the same example. The literature issued along with the manufacturer of this microphone is bona fide. So if anyone follows that bona fide literature, he can deal with it. Otherwise, a bogus.

'''Mike Robinson:''' I see. Well, if we could take something which I believe you feel fairly strongly about, and that's some of the other Eastern cults and the ''gurus''.

'''Prabhupāda:''' That I cannot study.

'''Mike Robinson:''' Yes, can you explain to me why it is that . . .?

'''Prabhupāda:''' So far I know, they do not know anything. They simply come and bluff and cheat, that's all.

'''Mike Robinson:''' I see. What are the big differences that you seem to be . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' The difference is they are not following the original literature. They are manufacturing their own literature. That is the difference. Not authorized.

'''Mike Robinson:''' I mean of the big differences I'm noticing is that you are stressing very much science and rational thinking, and they very often stress feeling, which doesn't seem to . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. When there is something wrong, you just consult the original literature, not any literature issued by a bogus man.

'''Mike Robinson:''' Can you explain to me, then, the place of feeling in your religion. The place of emotions.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Our feeling is that we are dealing with the genuine thing, that's all.

'''Mike Robinson:''' And can . . . if we can go on from that. Everybody seems to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa a lot of times during the day.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, that is the easiest process to become purified, especially given in this age. Because people are so dull that they cannot understand spiritual understanding very easily. So in order to purify him, this chanting is especially offered, that if he chants Hare Kṛṣṇa, then his brain becomes purified to understand spiritual things.

'''Mike Robinson:''' You say it's the simplest one. Are there presumably other chantings that maybe you yourself use?

'''Prabhupāda:''' I don't think there is any other chanting. This is the only chanting. Where is other chanting? 

'''Mike Robinson:''' No, I was asking if there was.

'''Prabhupāda:''' You can manufacture so many, but this is the only, original chant. Yes.

'''Mike Robinson:''' I see. Let's see, what else? You founded the movement, I believe, was it ten years ago? That's correct. Why was it that you left till you were so late in life before you founded it?

'''Prabhupāda:''' I must be prepared; I must be bona fide to preach.

'''Mike Robinson:''' And how do you become qualified? How did you become qualified, though?

'''Prabhupāda:''' That is a spiritual process.

'''Mike Robinson:''' And so you presumably had your teachers.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.

'''Mike Robinson:''' Just as you now are teaching many other people.

'''Prabhupāda:''' If one is going to pass M.A. examination, he must be qualified. Not that all of a sudden one becomes M.A. He must be qualified.

'''Mike Robinson:''' So what are you doing now? You've come to England for a brief stay. I gather you travel a lot.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Just to guide my disciples and to see how they are doing things. That's all.

'''Mike Robinson:''' And do you do that, all travel around the world, don't you?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, but now I am getting old, so it is little difficult for me. Still I have to do and come and see.

'''Mike Robinson:''' And that is your mission in life, is it, to . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, I have established it; I want to see that it is not spoiled.

'''Mike Robinson:''' I see. Can you tell me how you feel led, you know, how you are guided to do what you do?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Well, there are the books, just like I also told you, the literature.

'''Mike Robinson:''' So it's from your scriptures that you've learned that you've got to do this.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, we have got so many literatures. We are explaining in English. Guide is . . . it is not manufactured. The guide is from the beginning. Simply one has to take that guidance, then everything's all right. And if we manufacture guidance, then is spoiled. Just like in the literature of this microphone you say that this should be like this, this should be like this, number two should be by the side of number four. You cannot make any change. Then it is spoiled.

'''Mike Robinson:''' Now we've talked for some time concerning spiritual matters and the philosophy of Hare Kṛṣṇa. How does it affect the way people live?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, because he's suffering for want of this knowledge. He's misunderstanding himself that he is the body. Suppose if you misunderstand that you are coat and shirt, and so you sew and wash the coat and shirt. Will you be happy? Will you be happy?

'''Mike Robinson:''' No, I won't.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. So similarly all these rascals, they are simply washing the coat and shirt. They have no information that what is there within the coat and shirt. They have no information. Ask anybody. All rascals will say: "Yes, I am Englishman, I am this coat," that's all. "I am thinking like an Englishman." That shirt. And what you are, he cannot say. You are thinking—that is your mind. You are having this body, that is your body, but what you are? Who is thinking over this? Nobody.

'''Mike Robinson:''' So by understanding the Kṛṣṇa . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' Misunderstanding. The whole civilization, the modern civilization, is going on misunderstanding. ''Dehātma-buddhiḥ''—just like cats and dogs. Suppose if you become very proud, "I am Englishman. Why you have come here?" As the dogs bark, "''Row! Row!'' Why you have come here?" So where is the difference? What is the difference? He's thinking "I am dog," you are thinking "Englishman," I am thinking "Indian." There is no difference. So if we keep people in darkness of dog's mentality, and declare we are advanced in civilization, most misguiding.

'''Mike Robinson:''' I see. And so when people are taught, they will then understand. But what I'd also like to know is how would it affect the way they live? In sort of purely . . . the way they go about their life.

'''Prabhupāda:''' You see they are living, these boys are living. It is not very difficult. They are not dying; they are living.

'''Mike Robinson:''' Yes, I accept that completely, but I want to know what differences, if you could tell me basically, what differences it makes to their life.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Difference is that if you accept this mode of life, it is very simplified, and no botheration, and you make your spiritual progress very easily. If you take otherwise, then it is difficult.

'''Mike Robinson:''' But are you asking people, if they accept your teachings, to retreat from the world, like for instance the people who are surrounding us now?

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, they are not retreated. What do you mean by retreat? I am using this microphone. Where is retreatment?

'''Mike Robinson:''' Sorry, maybe retreat was the wrong word. But are you asking them, for instance, if I was to become a member of the movement . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, we are asking that use this microphone for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness, not for sense gratification.

'''Mike Robinson:''' Not for . . .?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Sense gratification.

'''Devotees:''' Sense gratification, pleasing the senses.

'''Mike Robinson:''' Oh, thank you.

'''Prabhupāda:''' That is the . . . the microphone is the same. And the politician can speak all nonsense, and the so-called scientist may speak all nonsense of going to the Mars planet, but we don't talk all nonsense.

'''Mike Robinson:''' If we could just put one more tape on it. No, if I can explain to you, the question I am trying to ask, which I'm finding difficulty obviously to explain. Obviously, the members of the movement who are here have made a definite sort of decision that you've decided . . . they've decided, for instance, to dress differently, and they're dressing now in what would appear to be an Indian style. Is it necessary to do that, or could I carry on being a member of a radio station and still be a member of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Oh, yes.

'''Harikeśa:''' That would be very nice. 

(pause) (sound of tapes being exchanged)

'''Mike Robinson:''' Perhaps if I phrased it a bit differently. I gather that the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement also has some concern for areas of the world where there is suffering, physical suffering.

'''Prabhupāda:''' We have got the only concern. Others, they are simply avoiding. They have no responsibility. They are talking all nonsense. We have got real responsibility. These people are being misguided. They are kept in darkness. Let us try to give them some enlightenment.

'''Mike Robinson:''' Yes, but apart from giving spiritual enlightenment, do you also . . . are you also concerned for people's physical well-being?

'''Prabhupāda:''' That is automatically done.

'''Mike Robinson:''' And how would you go about doing that? Would you help the sick people in the world?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Just like if you have got a car to drive on. So naturally you take care of the car also. But not that you identify yourself, "I am this car." That is nonsense. They are doing that. They are taking too much care of the car, thinking that the car is one. He forgets that he is different from the car, he has got different business. He cannot eat the petrol and be satisfied. He has got different eating. But these rascals, they are thinking that, "Petrol is also my eating." And they are drinking petrol and dying, that's all. Petrol is meant for the car, and for you there are so many fruits, flowers, milk. But if a man thinks that "I am the car, I must drink this petrol," then he is doomed.

'''Mike Robinson:''' I see. There's two things if I could perhaps just bring up. One is a quote that we had . . . I was given this literature by some of your people before I came, in which one of the things you say is that, "Religion without a rational basis is just sentiment." Can you explain that to us, and the converse of it, which . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' Just like they, most religions, they say: "We believe." So what is this "believe"? You may believe something which is not naturally correct. Just like some of the Christian people, they say: "We believe there is no soul of the animal." That is not correct. You have believed because you want to eat the animal. You have discovered philosophy, but that's not the fact.

'''Mike Robinson:''' How do you know the animal has a soul?

'''Prabhupāda:''' You can know also. What is the difference? How do you distinguish that the animal has no soul and the man has soul? How do you distinguish? How do you say the man has soul and the animal has no soul? How do you distinguish?

'''Mike Robinson:''' I believe this Christian religion do it because their scriptures say . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' Again you believe. Don't believe. When you say that the animal has no soul, but you believe or you know that man has soul, so what is the distinction between the man and the animal you find so that you say that the animal has no soul? What is your scientific conclusion? How do you say that animal has no soul?

'''Mike Robinson:''' As far as the Christian faith is concerned, doesn't it base it . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' Why are you bringing Christian?

'''Mike Robinson:''' Well, I thought you quoted Christianity. But as far as the Christian faith is concerned, don't they quote their scriptures?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Then it is misleading. As soon as you say that "We Christians, we believe," then it is misbelief. It is not scientific.

'''Mike Robinson:''' Well how does it become scientific?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Scientific because the animal eats, you eat. The animal sleeps, you sleep. The animal have sex, you have sex. The animal also defends, you also defend. Then where is the difference between you and the animal? Why do you say there is no soul?

'''Mike Robinson:''' I can see that completely, but what I'm maybe querying is, for instance, the Christian scriptures would say that someone . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' Don't bring Christian scripture now. Simply just try to understand, that animal eats, you eat; and the animal sleeps, you sleep. The animal have sex; you have got sex. He also defends when he's attacked, you also defend. Then if the behavior of a living being is the same, how do you say that the animal has no soul? Why do you say like that, irresponsibly?

'''Mike Robinson:''' I see what you're getting at, but is that also . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' What is your answer, first of all?

'''Mike Robinson:''' (laughs) Well, my . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' Apart from your believing as Christian. As we are talking, as a scientist, how do you deny this animal has no soul?

'''Mike Robinson:''' But ultimately you're basing all your faith, factually, aren't you, on your reasoning?

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, no, no. It is quite argumental logic—that the animal can eat, you can eat. The animal can sleep, you can sleep. The animal can have sex, you can have sex. The animal can defend, you can defend. So why do you deny this poor animal soul?

'''Mike Robinson:''' Well, perhaps if I put my point perhaps a slightly different way, and you . . . by your reasoning, if . . . this is a hypothetical situation, but if you, by your reasoning, could imagine something that seemed contrary to the scriptures that you were reading earlier . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' Again scripture. Why do you bring scripture?

'''Mike Robinson:''' Well, I'm referring to your scripture, not . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' Not my scripture; it is common sense, talking.

'''Mike Robinson:''' Yes, but everything that you . . . occurs in . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, forget that everything. Come to the common platform for understanding. The animal is eating, you are eating. The animal sleeping, you are sleeping. The animal is defending, you are defending. The animal is having sex, you have sex. The animal have children, you have got children. You have got a living place, they have got a living place. So why do you say . . . if your body's cut, there is blood. If the animal body's cut, there is blood. So all the similarities are there. So why you deny one similarity? Analogy. Analogy means points of similarity. So this is logic. You have read logic? There is a chapter, analogy. Analogy means points of similarity. If the points of similarity are so many things, why one similarity should be avoided? That is not logic. That is not science.

'''Mike Robinson:''' But if you take that logic and use it the other way . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' Otherwise . . . there is no other way.

'''Mike Robinson:''' No, if you say . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' If you are not on the basis of logic, then you are not rational.

'''Mike Robinson:''' Yes, okay. But let's start from another hypothesis. If you say the animal has no soul . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' How can say?

'''Mike Robinson:''' No, hang on. If you started off by saying that, then you'd have to say human beings would have no soul, wouldn't you?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.

'''Mike Robinson:''' And therefore . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' If you accept human being has soul, you have to accept animal has soul. If you accept animal has no soul, then human has no soul.

'''Mike Robinson:''' Well what proof have you got, then, that a human being has got a soul?

'''Prabhupāda:''' That is your business. We say everyone has soul. The animal has soul and the man has soul.

'''Mike Robinson:''' But if you're going to be rational, you've got surely to prove, you see, you've got to prove that a human being has a soul.

'''Prabhupāda:''' This is rational. Because we see all the points of similarity, analogy—therefore the human being has soul and the animal has soul, by points of similarity.

'''Mike Robinson:''' Yes, I can see the point you're trying to make about similarity, but what I'm asking is, what proof do you have that a human being has a soul?

'''Prabhupāda:''' That is, I have already begun. As soon as the soul is gone, what is the value of your this beautiful body? Who cares for this body? You throw it away, kick it out. And now, if I touch your hair, there will be fight. (laughter) Yes. That is the distinction. The soul is there and soul is not there. As soon as soul is not there, it has no value—useless.

'''Mike Robinson:''' I see but, so what part then do . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' Therefore you have to study, that, this . . . at the present moment people are so dull-headed, they are not taking the important point, that this body, one minute ago it was so important, and now it has no value. If you kick on his face, nobody will say. But they have no brain to understand what is that thing missing, that it has become so unimportant that within a minute . . . they have no brain. The so-called scientists, philosophers, all dull-headed. It is very abominable condition of society. There is no man who is real brain.

'''Mike Robinson:''' Are you sort of writing off all scientists because they've failed to understand the spiritual dimension in life?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Huh? Yes, it is scientific, everything scientific. Science means knowledge, full knowledge.

'''Mike Robinson:''' But you were a chemist yourself, were you not, in secular life before you took up the position you have . . .?

'''Prabhupāda:''' It doesn't require to become a very big chemist. Any commonsense man can do it. Of course, I was chemist in my previous life.

'''Mike Robinson:''' So presumably you think that, that science is also important, even if scientists are being dull-headed.

'''Prabhupāda:''' The important so far—not all-important. Not all-important.

'''Mike Robinson:''' I see. Can I come back to a question that is interesting me, and that is when we were differing a few minutes ago, you were saying don't bother, you know, don't bring the scriptures in, use common sense. But what part do the scriptures have in your religion? How important are they?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Our religion is science. As we, when we speak that a child grows, a boy, it is science, it is not religion. Every child grows to become a boy. Where is the question of religion? Every man dies. Where is the question of religion? And when a man dies, the body is useless. So where is the question of religion? But it is science. It is science. Either you Christian or Hindu or Muslim, when you die your body's useless. This is science. 

'''Mike Robinson:''' But religion must come in surely somewhere, doesn't it?

'''Prabhupāda:''' You cannot say that, "We are Christian. Now the body is dead. Now we don't consider it as dead. We believe it is not dead." No, it is dead. Either you are Christian or Hindu or Muslim, it is dead, it is useless. So when we speak, we speak on this basis, that the body is important—it doesn't matter whether is Christian body or Hindu body or Muslim body—so long the soul is there. When the soul is not there, it is useless. It is applicable to everyone.

'''Mike Robinson:''' I think I'm beginning to get, if you could explain, a bit confused. What I'd like you to explain is . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' We are trying to educate people on this basis.

'''Mike Robinson:''' But that's, if I understand you correctly, you seem to be educating people on a purely scientific basis.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.

'''Mike Robinson:''' So where does religion come into it at all?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Religion means also science. But they have taken religion as faith, "I believe." Religion means, actually, ''religion'' means . . . just like in the dictionary you find . . . what is the religion, you find.

'''Hari-śauri:''' Obeying the Supreme Person.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. Religion means to learn how to obey the supreme controller. That is religion. So you may be Christian, I may be Hindu, it doesn't matter. But we must accept there is a supreme controller.

'''Hari-śauri:''' (indistinct background comments)

'''Mike Robinson:''' I'm sorry, we seem to have run out of tape. Are you happy to carry on for a few more minutes perhaps?

'''Hari-śauri:''' I have that reference in the dictionary. It says "Human recognition of superhuman controlling power . . ."

'''Prabhupāda:''' Just see!

'''Hari-śauri:''' ". . . and especially of a personal God entitled to obedience, and effect of such recognition on the conduct of mental attitude."

'''Prabhupāda:''' (sounds of tape being changed) This is religion. This is religion. So this religion is applicable to everyone, any human being. Why do you bring Christian or Hindu or Muslim, or . . .? Everyone has to accept that. That is real religion. And this is not religion, "We believe there is no soul of the animal." That is not religion. That is most unscientific. That is not religion. Religion means scientific understanding of the supreme controller. So now if you accept the supreme controller, then if you violate something, you must be punished. Immediately you have to accept. As soon as you accept there is supreme controller, so immediately as you violate the laws of the supreme controller, immediately you are punished. That is nature's law.

'''Mike Robinson:''' Can we . . . can you say a bit more of that, just for the tape? You were saying that religion is obeying the supreme controller.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. Religion means to understand the supreme controller and obey. That's all. Just like good citizen means he understands the government and obeys the laws of government. That's all. Good citizen. What is the difference between bad citizen and good citizen? The bad citizen means he doesn't care for the government—"Ah, I don't care for"—that is bad citizen. That is irreligious. If you are bad citizen, then you are irreligious. If you are good citizen, then you are religious.

'''Mike Robinson:''' Would you . . . in your opinion, is it impossible for somebody to be a scientist and not to believe in God?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Unless he's a rascal, he cannot say that. Scientifically, you have to accept God. You cannot deny God. Just like the example I have given sometimes, just like you see there are so many living entities, beginning from grass, or anything. There are so many living entities coming out of the material elements. Some of them are coming from water, some of them coming from land, some of them coming from air . . . (break) There is life in fire also.  So the material nature is giving birth to so many living entities. So if the material nature is the mother and all these living entities are children, then where is the father?

'''Mike Robinson:''' I don't know. The father is God, is it?

'''Prabhupāda:''' There . . . you must know there must be father. I may know, not know him, but without father the children cannot be brought into existence. This is science. First of all, try to understand this. The mother is there, the children are there. So there must be father. This is scientific understanding. So who is that rascal scientist who can say: "No, there is no father"? Then he's not a scientist, he's a rascal. How you can deny the existence of father? You may not see him or may see him, it doesn't matter. There must be father. This simple understanding.

'''Mike Robinson:''' So you completely write off anybody who says that there should be a step of faith. And would you, in other words . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' No faith! It is fact!

'''Mike Robinson:''' So you would say that science can prove that God exists?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, here is proof. Here is the proof, that there is children. Children are children, there is mother—so there must be father. This is proof. It doesn't require much proof.

'''Mike Robinson:''' I see. Can you tell me what you believe to be the meaning of life, why do we exist in the first place?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Meaning of life means to enjoy, but we are in a different platform of life. Therefore we are suffering instead of enjoying. But if you come to the real platform, then you enjoy. Because here we see struggle for existence. Everyone is struggling, but what is the aim? For enjoyment of life. Therefore life means enjoyment. But at the present moment our life is not enjoyment.

'''Mike Robinson:''' At the present moment, our life is not . . .?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Our life is not enjoyment—suffering.

'''Mike Robinson:''' Suffering, hmm.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, do you admit or not?

'''Mike Robinson:''' You are saying that at the present moment we are all suffering?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.

'''Mike Robinson:''' Yes, I would agree with that.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. Then the question should be that, "I want to enjoy. Why I am suffering?" Then you will have to mold your real life. Then you'll enjoy. And that is spiritual knowledge.

'''Mike Robinson:''' I see. Can you explain to me, then, perhaps finally, just some of the stages you go through in this spiritual life. Sort of, from somebody being a new devotee to Hare Kṛṣṇa, what are the mental or the spiritual stages you go through?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Spiritual stages . . . as they follow the principles, they realize that "Yes, I am advancing." Otherwise, why they should stick? They are also educated, they are young men, and they are coming from respectable family. They are not dull-headed dogs. So why they are sticking to this principle unless they feel, "Yes, I am making progress"? Just like you are hungry, and if you are given some foodstuff, you eat the . . . with every morsel of food you feel, "Yes, my hunger is satisfied. I am feeling strength. I must go on till I am fully satisfied." It is like that. It doesn't require certificate from others. He'll feel himself, "Yes."

'''Mike Robinson:''' Yes, what I'm asking you, say, maybe if you could explain to me how you personally . . . the different feelings . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' We simply suggest that you follow this method and you'll advance. And if anyone follows, he advances, that's all. Our . . . I am teacher, my business is to give them direction. So if they follow the direction, their business is successful.

'''Mike Robinson:''' Yes, but perhaps you could explain to me the different feelings that you've gone through in your life. Is that possible?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Everyone—why I, you?—everyone. So long one is in ignorance, there are different feelings. When one is in knowledge, that is permanent feeling. Suppose a man was in ignorance, he was committing a theft, and he suffered. And now when he has come to knowledge that, "This business is not good," he does not any more steal and does not suffer. That's all.

'''Mike Robinson:''' But there must be different stages that you go through. Is that not correct?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, yes, different stages.

'''Mike Robinson:''' Can you tell me from your own experience some of these different stages you've been through.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, first stage is that you are inquisitively trying to understand. This is the first stage. This is called ''śraddha'', that you have got some faith, "What is this movement? Let me study." This is the beginning. Then, if you are serious, then those who are cultivating this knowledge, you mix with them, try to understand how they are feeling. Then you'll feel, "Why not become one of them?" Then when you become one of them, then all your misgivings go away. And then you become more faithful and you . . . then you get a taste. Why these boys are not going to see the cinema? They can go—other boys are going. They never ask me. Neither they would like to see even. They hate. Their taste is different. Why they do not eat meat, go to the restaurant? Their taste has changed. In this way you make progress. Firm faith, taste is changed; then God-realization, then love of Godhead, the perfection. That is wanted, love of Godhead. That is first-class religion. Not that ritualistic ceremony, "I believe," "This belief." That is not religion; that is cheating. Really when you develop your love for God, that is perfection of religion.

'''Mike Robinson:''' Perhaps finally, then, I could ask you, do you ever have any doubts?

'''Prabhupāda:''' If I have doubts, how I am preaching? That means I am cheating. And how I am writing so many books? Do you think a man with doubt can produce, in doubtful condition, he can produce so many books? (quiet laughing) Do you think like that?

'''Mike Robinson:''' Well, I don't know. I just . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' Well, you should know. (laughter)

'''Mike Robinson:''' So you never doubt any of this, anything at all?

'''Prabhupāda:''' We are sure.

'''Mike Robinson:''' That you have found the truth.

'''Prabhupāda:''' ''Utsāhān dhairyāt niścayād''. (aside) Find out this verse.

'''Harikeśa:'''

:''utsāhān niścayād dhairyāt''
:''tat-tat-karma-pravartanāt''
:''saṅga-tyagāt sato vṛtteḥ''
:''ṣaḍbhir bhaktiḥ prasidhyati''
:(Upadeśāmṛta 3)

"There are six principles favorable to the execution of pure devotional service: (1) being enthusiastic, (2) endeavoring with confidence, (3) being patient, (4) acting according to regulative principles [such as ''śravanaṁ kīrtanam viṣṇoḥ smaranam'' (SB 7.5.23)—hearing, chanting and remembering Kṛṣṇa), (5) abandoning the association of nondevotees, and (6) following in the footsteps of the previous ''acaryas''. These six principles undoubtedly assure the complete success of pure devotional service."

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. Everything is there.

'''Mike Robinson:''' And you are sure that this is the truth.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.

'''Mike Robinson:''' Thank you very much for talking to me. It's been a pleasure talking to you.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Hare Kṛṣṇa. Give him ''prasādam''.

'''Hari-śauri:''' This is a, just a . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' Take ''prasādam''.

'''Mike Robinson:''' It's lovely. Do I eat it with a spoon? (laughs) 

'''Hari-śauri:''' You can eat it however . . .

'''Mike Robinson:''' How's the normal way to eat it?

'''Hari-śauri:''' You can eat it with a spoon, it's all right.

'''Jayatīrtha:''' Is there a spoon?

'''Mike Robinson:''' Yes, there is. Thank you very much.

'''Harikeśa:''' There's no rule for taking ''prasādam''.

'''Mike Robinson:''' What's it made of?

'''Hari-śauri:''' This is called ''halavā''.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Farina.

'''Hari-śauri:''' Farina and ''ghee'', it's cooked.

'''Harikeśa:''' (indistinct) . . . butter.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Most of our preperation are made from milk products. Therefore we are so much fond of cow protection. It gives the basic principle of palatable foodstuff. But these people, they do not know. They simply cut the throat of the cow and boil it and with salt. (laughter) They do not know how to keep the cow and take milk from it and prepare hundreds and thousands of nice preparations.

'''Mike Robinson:''' It's very good. 

'''Prabhupāda:''' That is a lack of civilization. Just like all the, what is called, aborigines, they find an animal, kill it and eat. They do not how to utilize the animal. Most aboriginal. We keep cows, we take milk, and from milk we make yogurt, we make ''ghee'', and from ''ghee'' we prepare so many things.

'''Mike Robinson:''' What do you do with a cow when it dies? Do you just bury it?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. If the cow-eaters can come and take it free of charge. (laughter)

'''Mike Robinson:''' Well, let me know, you know.

'''Prabhupāda:''' You can get the skin free of charges. In India still, there is a class, they, when the cow dies, they are called, they are called ''chāmar''. So he comes, take away the animal, dead animal, and they eat the flesh and take the skin, make shoes. They get all, everything free. There is no question of going to the butcher's place to purchase. So this much patience they have got that, "We want to eat this cow. All right, let us wait till her death." "No, immediately." Just see, what a civilization. And cow is giving milk, she is mother. Killing the mother. Do you think it is civilization? Mother, who has given you milk in your childhood, and maintained your life, and because she is old, cutting throat. Is that good civilization?

'''Mike Robinson:''' Seems silly, doesn't it. Umm, I think you're keeping cows here?

'''Jayatīrtha:''' Yes. We have about twelve cows here.

'''Prabhupāda:''' We have got many farms all over the world. They are living very happy. Have you got some pictures?

'''Jayatīrtha:''' Of the cows?

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, of our farms, farmland. Leading very simple life, in your country, in, I mean to say, America, Europe. Very simple life. Food grains and milk. You can prepare hundreds of nice preparations, full of vitamins, nutritious. And they do not know how to live civilized life.

'''Jayatīrtha:''' Here are some nice pictures here. Some of our cows. You see this small one. And here's one of our farms in West Virginia in America. There's over a hundred and fifty cows in this farm. 

(background discussion about a bee or wasp)

'''Hari-śauri:''' Oh, sorry, Śrīla Prabhupāda. There's a wasp. I just wanted to capture it.

'''Mike Robinson:''' Do you find the English weather cold?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Because I am old man. I'm not a young blood like you.

'''Mike Robinson:''' And you think it's more because of your age? I mean, you've got used to a colder climate than India, have you?

'''Prabhupāda:''' We are accustomed to tropical climate. This . . . heat does not disturb us, but cold disturb us. We can tolerate extreme heat, 120 degrees, but we cannot tolerate fifty degree cold.

'''Mike Robinson:''' That's cold. (laughs)

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.

'''Mike Robinson:''' That was very good. Thank you very much.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Why young men are attracted to, they inquire? 

'''Mike Robinson:''' Why . . .?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Why young men are attracted in this movement?

'''Mike Robinson:''' What is the answer?

'''Prabhupāda:''' They are receptive. Young man is blank slate. They are not sophisticated. Therefore they receive very nicely.

'''Jayatīrtha:''' Mind is more open.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Huh? Mind is open. That is the reason. And they are not so sinful, because they are young.

'''Hari-śauri:''' Not quite so defeated by material nature.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. There is time.

'''Jayatīrtha:''' Here's some more pictures of our farms. We have about eighteen farms.

'''Hari-śauri:''' Actually, we have a whole film that shows this farming project; it's very nice.

'''Prabhupāda:''' You come here every Sunday. You come here every Sunday, take our this ''prasādam''.

'''Mike Robinson:''' I'd very much like if I could sometime in the future perhaps to come and interview some of the people who are here.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Come and see. He's the president, he can see you. He's the more command. You can see him.

'''Mike Robinson:''' That would be possible if sometime I could just spend the day up here and talk to some . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' You can live here comfortably, yes.

'''Jayatīrtha:''' If you like, you can spend the whole day with us. You can stay overnight. We have a guest room, very comfortable.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yesterday George Harrison came, he stayed with me for a whole day.

'''Mike Robinson:''' Sorry?

'''Devotees:''' George Harrison came yesterday.

'''Mike Robinson:''' Yes, I know. I'd love to actually to have met the two of you together, which would have been very nice.

'''Prabhupāda:''' He came yesterday and lived with us the whole day. 

'''Jayatīrtha:''' (indistinct) . . . article about the case against animal slaughter.

'''Prabhupāda:''' He has given us this house, George Harrison. Yes.

'''Mike Robinson:''' (sounds of packing equipment) Actually, it's very good, isn't it? It's a lovely house, isn't it?

'''Jayatīrtha:''' Yes, very nice house.

'''Mike Robinson:''' How do you find it in winter? Do you find it difficult coping then, or is it . . .?

'''Jayatīrtha:''' No. I do, because I'm from the desert, but our British boys of course appreciate it. When it gets over 75 they immediately become prostrated with the heat.

'''Mike Robinson:''' Which desert are you from?

'''Jayatīrtha:''' Well, from the California desert.

'''Mike Robinson:''' Oh, I see . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' I shall request you, you are young man, just try to study our philosophy. And as you are journalist, try to do some good to the people. That is your duty.

'''Mike Robinson:''' Well, certainly we're trying to present both other people's views and . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' Don't take it as a sectarian religious system. It is very scientific understanding for spiritual life.

'''Harikeśa:''' That, ah, "Beware of the undefeatable reasoning and logic of the Hare Kṛṣṇas, who will steal away your children." (laughs) Because we argue so nicely because Śrīla Prabhupāda has trained us up very perfectly, because he also is the perfect teacher of this. Therefore the students can learn that way. So when we argue, people become afraid, because it makes so much sense.

'''Prabhupāda:''' They accuse me, "kidnapper of children." But what is my kidnapping method? The young men, they understand philosophy. What I can do, kidnapping? I have no money, I have no strength.

'''Mike Robinson:''' It exists purely as a charity, isn't that correct?

'''Hari-śauri:''' Yes, purely nonprofit.

'''Mike Robinson:''' Which must make it difficult sometimes, does it?

'''Harikeśa:''' No, it's done out of love. So it is not at all difficult.

'''Mike Robinson:''' I see.

'''Jayatīrtha:''' No one requires any payment. Rather the payment is the fulfillment that they are experiencing.

'''Mike Robinson:''' But how about the electricity board and people like that? I mean, where do you get the money?

'''Jayatīrtha:''' Kṛṣṇa gives us the money.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, there is no scarcity of money. We are selling our books daily, sixty thousand dollars' worth. So we have got sufficient income to maintain the whole institute.

'''Jayatīrtha:''' No one takes any personal benefit. All the money is used for the furtherance of our principles.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Besides that, when we require a nice house, somebody gives. Just like George has given us. Similarly, we have got many houses. One boy, his name is Alfred Ford, he's the great-grandson of Mr. Ford, Henry Ford. He has given us two, three very nice properties. So the money, there is no scarcity, and Kṛṣṇa is everywhere. If Kṛṣṇa dictates, "Give him this," he'll give, that's all. And that is being happening actually. Within ten years nobody can expect to construct a house like this in a city like London. Is it possible? Even if he is a very big businessman. Not only one; there are so many. It is all Kṛṣṇa's mercy. (''kirtana'' in background)

'''Mike Robinson:''' I don't know. Cost a lot, wouldn't it? Is this worship that's taking place downstairs?

'''Harikeśa:''' Yes, go down and see if you like.

'''Prabhupāda:''' You can see the Deity. Yes, go and see.

'''Mike Robinson:''' Thank you very much. Pleasure to meet you.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Thank you very much for your coming.

'''Devotees:''' Hare Kṛṣṇa.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Mike Robinson leaves) (break)

'''Hari-śauri:''' Actually, he was quite intelligent. He was asking good questions because he was following the conversation. He was better than most of the interviewers, anyway. You're very expert. (laughter) You capture them, and then you guide what they're going to say. It's perfect.

'''Harikeśa:''' I was noticing that, that when you finish speaking with somebody, although he's bewildered, all of a sudden he understands, and he becomes amazed. I mean that happens with me also. It's just . . . it's the most fantastic technique. You're so patient.

'''Hari-śauri:''' Like that man from the Associated Press. You forced him to stay on those two analogies until he understood. For ten minutes you explained that, the car and the driver, until it finally got through to him. Then when he finally had some realization of it, then you again gave him another analogy about breaking the bricks in the prison. And again you forced him to stay on the same subject matter. (laughing) And he . . . you do it in such a way that they think that they're asking very good questions from their own intelligence. Actually, you've already captured them.

'''Harikeśa:''' It's like taming wild animals. The perfect animal trainer. (laughing)

'''Prabhupāda:''' He said that breaking the bricks is the business. I said the sooner you give up this, then you are happy. ''Karmīs'', the ''karmīs'' want this, breaking the bricks. They think this is civilization—brick, more brick, and bring more bricks and break it. That is civilization.

'''Hari-śauri:''' And then when we tell them that this is not your business, they ask us, "Why aren't you breaking bricks?"

'''Prabhupāda:''' You are punished. You are being punished in this way. Actually, I saw in New York, big, big building, they are breaking; again, another skyscraper. You go on, business, breaking the bricks, that's all. They think this is very good business. Once constructed, again break it. As child, children, they make a sand house and break it again. This is the occupation.

'''Harikeśa:''' But there's nothing else to do for them.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, that is the difficulty. Now see, there is no soul. Why no soul? How foolish it is. "We believe." You believe something nonsense, it has to be accepted? Where is the difference of analogy?

'''Harikeśa:''' (laughs) They have to give up.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Analogy, the more the points of similarities are there, it is perfect. That is the logical conclusion. Everything is there similar, why you should deny the other? How rascaldom it is. Common sense.

'''Hari-śauri:''' He was a little bit confused, because first of all you quoted ''śāstra'', said everything was from ''śāstra''. Then again you said: "Forget the ''śāstra''; this is logic." (laughter) He couldn't figure out how they both came into play. And then at the end you said that religion is logic.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, that is religion. If you have to accept the supreme authority, then as soon as you violate you are punishable. Very commonsense.

'''Hari-śauri:''' It's because they're so conditioned by this man-made religion. They think that the scriptures they read is something that's made up.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Therefore they change.

'''Hari-śauri:''' Yes, it's a belief that's . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' Whatever there is suitable, they make. But he cannot control over the supreme controller. They have no brain. And they are going on under the name of religion. Just see. All these rascals. Therefore they're all cheating. If you believe in the supreme controller, how you can change whimsically the law given by the supreme controller?

'''Hari-śauri:''' If you actually know God, then . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, that means it is fictitious. You don't believe in God.

'''Harikeśa:''' We have to get you on every radio in the world, Prabhupāda. We just have to put you on the radio everywhere.

'''Prabhupāda:''' You do it, I give you the ideas.

'''Harikeśa:''' Oh, everything you say is so wonderful. Just . . . we have to put you on the radio. These people, they have no idea.

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, thing is that I say all these things because I always think of this. I always think.

'''Hari-śauri:''' If you don't forget Kṛṣṇa, then . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, you always think how to talk with these demonic people. Then Kṛṣṇa will give you intelligence.

'''Hari-śauri:''' This is the most difficult welfare work.

'''Harikeśa:''' They don't want it.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Not difficult; it is easiest. But this rascal will not take the easiest.

'''Hari-śauri:''' That's the difficulty.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. They have made it difficult. Accept the supreme controller, everything is clear. Accept the father, everything is clear. There is mother, there is children—no father. How rascaldom it is. How it can be? No experience, and still they will persist, "No father." Can you show me the father? What is, nonsense? If you do not see the father, it does not mean that there is no father. Father must be there. You may not have seen, that is different. And you can see the father because the father is maintaining the family order. Therefore there is father. From this simple analogy: Just like father gives money in the hand of the mother and she maintains the children comfort. Similarly, whatever comforts we are getting, from the nature's gift you say, that is arrangement of the father. ''Mayādhyakṣena prakṛtiḥ sūyate sacarācaram'' ([[BG 9.10 (1972)|BG 9.10]]). Clearly said. Father gives order, "Nature, do this way, do this way. He's disobeying, then punish him like that." That's all. "Don't give him anything. Punish him." Just like nature is not supplying water. The order of Kṛṣṇa, "Let them suffer for some time." This is going on. You cannot check it, father's order. Common sense. How they can deny it, the supreme father? It is not possible. Dull-headed fools, that's all. ''Mūḍha''. Any fruits you have got?

'''Hari-śauri:''' Yes. We have some grapes. Shall I get them?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Grapes, sometimes they are sour. What other?

'''Hari-śauri:''' Pears, apples, bananas, watermelon.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Banana is very good. And you can  give me apple.

'''Hari-śauri:''' Pear also?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.

'''Hari-śauri:''' I'll try the grapes. If they're not sour, I'll bring some.

'''Prabhupāda:''' So you keep that passport . . . (break) They are opening hospital for giving medicine to the shirt and coat, and where is the man's medicine? Washing the shirt and coat, laundry work. They do not know that the man within the shirt and coat requires different treatment, different . . . he has got different necessities, different life. If I simply wash the shirt and coat, does it mean the man is happy? They have no common sense even. "Yes, we are supplying petrol to the car. It must drive." "Well, sir, to give food to the driver who will drive?" "Doesn't require; petrol is there." That's all. This is their intelligence. They are supplying petrol, that's all. Will the driver eat . . . drink petrol? They have no knowledge. He requires spiritual food. And these rascals, they do not know it. They'll say that petrol is sufficient both for the car and the driver. This is their intelligence.

'''Harikeśa:''' They are always maddened by lusty desires.

'''Prabhupāda:''' ''Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma'' ([[SB 5.5.4|SB 5.5.4]]). Very, very risky civilization. Keeping the whole human society in darkness. ''Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ bahir-artha-māninaḥ'' ([[SB 7.5.31|SB 7.5.31]]). By material adjustment they are thinking that "Everything will be done." There are two different things: matter and spirit. The spirit requires spiritual food. (sound of water pouring, scraping noise)

'''Harikeśa:''' I just remembered the . . . (looks for something)

'''Prabhupāda:''' Keep in the right place. Keep . . . yes. They are thinking like it is another religious system, like Christianity or . . . so if they are so fools, they are giving up one system and coming to another system? Why they should come at all? There is no necessity. And what advantage I am giving?

'''Harikeśa:''' In fact, quite a few disadvantages.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. (laughter)

'''Harikeśa:''' You say we cannot eat meat, have sex life. 

Be right back. (end)